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Author Topic: Folding Quads in the One Drop  (Read 12987 times)
CHIPPYMAN
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« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2012, 08:08:25 PM »

Never folding here... No way

not meaning to be offensive but this view is shared by a lot of people and I think they're missing a trick.

Yes poker is a math game but we all know that if you play GTO then you can't be exploited but you can never win a lot either, this situation is the kind of decision that seperates the good and the great.

Even Galfond, who is an uber-genius said that he might not fold but that he still expects to see  more than half the time..........

 

He can have JJ here too often, slim chance KK and poss be a value shove with NF. In this specific spot no way I fold. However i totally understand his logic for doing so.

He doesnt have the nut flush

With ur soul Greek read , what do u think he had?
My opinion is he had JJ 99.99999% and he prob slow play
post flop. Mayb I am wrong but my soul read says JJ.
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pleno1
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« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2012, 10:51:37 PM »

Anyone who doesn't think he had quads ever lay me like 3/1 and il have a big punt.
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« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2012, 10:52:27 PM »

It also doesn't make sense to have jj 99% of the time just from a pure combos perspective.
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I KNOW IT
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« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2012, 04:25:18 AM »

Why do we assume that a very rich business man is thinking about his holding on the same level as a pro poker player ?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 04:29:03 AM by I KNOW IT » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2012, 01:12:32 PM »

I agree that there is a case for some thought, and that this thought should end in a call. This seems to be roughly the view of a decent number of people.

Therefore, just a thought:

Would people agree, that had his mammoth dwell ended in a winning call, this thread would exist, but under the title " sickest ever nitroll in The One Drop?"

Is the agreement of many, that in this hand that it is possible to consider folding quad eights, possibly a suggestion that, in some other hands, the word nitroll is used too easily and frequently?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 01:15:16 PM by easypickings » Logged
Tal
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« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2012, 01:22:01 PM »

I agree that there is a case for some thought, and that this thought should end in a call. This seems to be roughly the view of a decent number of people.

Therefore, just a thought:

Would people agree, that had his mammoth dwell ended in a winning call, this thread would exist, but under the title " sickest ever nitroll in The One Drop?"

Is the agreement of many, that in this hand that it is possible to consider folding quad eights, possibly a suggestion that, in some other hands, the word nitroll is used too easily and frequently?

Got to be said: that is a brilliantly insightful point.

Now where did I put my "sorry for sounding sychophantic" emoticon..?
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« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2012, 01:32:18 PM »

Anyone who doesn't think he had quads ever lay me like 3/1 and il have a big punt.

Pretty sure he had quads in this hand, may well have had them before too.
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« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2012, 02:33:35 PM »

The guy is an absolute box and gets quads so often that folding them is trivial!

His 99 quaded up to knock out dwan and negranu
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smashedagain
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« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2012, 02:35:59 PM »

Still no word on what he actually had.
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« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2012, 03:47:26 PM »

Still no word on what he actually had.

The guy said he wouldn't reveal out of respect for his opponent, so presume that means it was the best bluff ever.

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« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2012, 04:48:07 PM »

Still no word on what he actually had.

The guy said he wouldn't reveal out of respect for his opponent, so presume that means it was the best bluff ever.


Ok. Sounds like a business mans thinking and not a poker players. Sounds like the quads was ahead then. The mystery will continue
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« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2012, 09:06:25 PM »


Looks like Morgan finally moved up enough that they respect his raises.
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« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2012, 07:42:29 AM »

Probably call Kings full but fold Quads
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« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2012, 10:28:51 AM »

Thought I'd add Collin Moshman's thoughts on this as they were pretty interesting:

(from http://teammoshman.com/?p=9665)

A lot of people are still talking about the face-up quads fold in One Drop.  I don’t have the exact details, but will reconstruct the action as closely as I can to start the discussion.
 
Blinds: $6000-$12000-$2000
Preflop: Dwan raises to $32k (position unknown), Mikhail Smirnov calls in SB with , John Morgan calls in BB.
Flop:  (Pot:  $114k)
Action: Smirnov bets $50k, Morgan calls “quickly,” Dwan folds.
Turn:   (Pot: $214k)
Action: Smirnov bets $200k, Morgan insta-calls.
River:    (Pot: $614k)
Action: Smirnov bets $700k, Morgan shoves $3.4M, Smirnov folds face-up.
 
Analysis:  Smirnov afterward says this was a “very easy fold,” which I think most would agree at least intuitively is a strange comment to make here.
 
I agree that the river shove indicates huge strength, particularly from a tighter player.  So let’s assume that Morgan is almost never bluffing or randomly shoving without a purpose.  The only hands consistent with the river action are, let’s say, JJ, KK, and Ts9s.
 
So now let’s look at the earlier streets.  Ts9s is the most consistent with the preflop action, but one aspect of the flop and turn are inconsistent.  In particular, quick calls are rarely monsters.  Everyone agrees that Morgan insta-called the turn.  It’s just super unlikely he makes a quick flop call with the nuts and doesn’t even consider raising, and it’s even more unlikely on the turn in a million dollar tourney in a large pot holding the stone nuts facing a large bet.   Same with JJ, both of those hands are strong enough that turn snap-calls are unlikely.  Definitely not impossible, just inconsistent with the timing.
 
So the alternative is KK.  While Morgan would most likely 3bet KK preflop, a cautious amateur could have decided to avoid playing a large pot OOP against Dwan with a fairly deep effective stack, even with a monster.  The quick flop and turn calls would then be less inconsistent with a hand like KK, as would the river shove.
 
So I believe that KK is Morgan’s most likely holding in this spot.
 
But let’s make the most generous assumptions we can for Smirnov’s fold:
Morgan never holds any hand besides KK or Ts9s (including 0% chance of JJ).
Morgan’s actions are equally consistent with KK or Ts9s.
 
There are three KK combos and one Ts9s combo.  Therefore Smirnov has 75% equity against Morgan’s shoving range while getting around 7:4 and therefore needing only about 36% equity.  Alternatively, Smirnov would be paying $2.7M for 75% equity in a $7.414M pot, for an equity gain of around $2.9M chips.
 
Smirnov therefore forfeits reasonably close to a million dollars in equity by folding there, based on the above assumptions.  For that reason I believe this fold to be one of the most significant mistakes equity-wise in the history of tourament poker.
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« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2012, 03:12:13 PM »

I just don't see how he can have KK here. I would expect a 3 bet pre and more than just calls on flop and turn. I think he has JJ here most of the time and could def have 9-10s. I wouldnt expect him to raise with the nuts on flop. More likely to trap. He either has JJ or 9-10s is my conclusion. He could have As flush and be value shoving the river but more likely to call behind with that on paired broad given the action.

I am still not folding and don't think he should either.
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