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pleno1
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« Reply #255 on: September 20, 2012, 12:25:37 AM »

I work with quite a few grandmasters. They all have over 2350 whatever that means Smiley they play and study almost every day and we get quite a few people travelling to get involved and challenge them etc. there's times when there really are a Lot of people spectating.

I played chess vs my parents every night for around 3 years and then about 4 times a eek for 6 years. I never ever studied and only ever played against them. I went to UNi and played va housemates and won prolly like 80/80 games. Another 1 year playing with parents 3 times a week.

How good do you think I'd probably be? Would I just be too exploitable? In a pretty quick learner and very enthusiastic about games and willing to study. How potentially good do you think I could be in say 1 year?
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« Reply #256 on: September 20, 2012, 12:43:32 AM »

I work with quite a few grandmasters. They all have over 2350 whatever that means Smiley they play and study almost every day and we get quite a few people travelling to get involved and challenge them etc. there's times when there really are a Lot of people spectating.

I played chess vs my parents every night for around 3 years and then about 4 times a eek for 6 years. I never ever studied and only ever played against them. I went to UNi and played va housemates and won prolly like 80/80 games. Another 1 year playing with parents 3 times a week.

How good do you think I'd probably be? Would I just be too exploitable? In a pretty quick learner and very enthusiastic about games and willing to study. How potentially good do you think I could be in say 1 year?

Way too difficult to answer almost any of those questions!

2350 would be on the cusp of being an International Master - well above my level - as you need to get your rating above 2400 (along with some other specific tournament criteria) to claim that title.

I assume you play poker with these people, when you say "work"? (Not a needle; just clarifying) From what I understand, a fair few of the master players in England make their money playing poker these days, even if their heart is in chess.

If you have absorbed the opening theory from these chaps, you might struggle against an opponent rated much lower who has a good understanding of the game and can outplay you tactically or positionally. If you have developed an understanding of the game, you'd need to get some theory in there.

Either of these can be coached/taught/learned.

Everything else is up to you. I have worked with complete novices (who knew the moves and nothing else) and got them to 1600 in 20 weeks at 40 mins a week. But it is completely subjective.

Plenty of people spend a lot of time reading Grandmaster books and going through games. How many people watch Premier League Poker and can remember nothing about the action as soon as the closing credits roll other than who won?

The people you work with are naturals. They are gifted players who "get it". The Grandmasters are one above that, too (2500+). The world elite (2700+) even more so.

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« Reply #257 on: September 20, 2012, 12:50:45 AM »

Yeh we have 1 or 2 grandmasters or international grandmasters.

One of the guys is Matthias wahls who I honk has a rating of close to 2600.

I work within poker with lots of former chess guys but there are 500 of us so I guess always will be a chess guy.

I want to just learn myself rather than getting coached etc whilst chess was weirdly a huge part of my life I got over obsessed with it Even though I never read one book or watched one video. I'd go to sleep dreaming about placing my knight in position to check the king whilst able to take the queen in te next part.

I'm sure I sound like a massive massive chess fish.

I don't even watch te games that they play, supposedly they are super super high standard and the guys seem to enjoy watching. We had a 2480 or something polish guy come over today to do some poker stuff and he played a few games and was deemed to be reall good.

It's quite a cool environment.
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« Reply #258 on: September 20, 2012, 01:11:28 AM »

Well, I'd start by getting a decent computer. That can be the sort you get free from the App Store (shredder would do the trick). For a laptop, I'd recommend Fritz, which is universally recognised as one of the very best because not only is it strong, it is compatible with a huge variety of training tools and DVDs.

Find an opening you're comfortable with (you find it easy to play and the position you end up in after, say, ten moves, is one you like) and maybe get a bit of familiarity with some of the more common variations (plenty of stuff on the internet for that). Minimal learning and anything you do will help you enjoy the games you play even more.

Have a look at some puzzles: white to play and mate in 2 etc. They will get you used to the sorts of patterns you find. Learn by osmosis how the pieces can work together. So much of chess is recognition (not memory; it's "ah this reminds me of a pawn structure I've seen before").

Read the odd (and do only read the odd, else you'll be bored senseless!) game analysis. Loads of them about - even I link to them occasionally. You will find an expert explaining why X played such and such a move. My advice would be to start with older games, as the modern ones are generally much more complicated. You can look at a game from 1920 and pick up as much than from 2012, at least until you are very familiar with the more complex stuff. YouTube might offer some assistance.
Oh and keep following the chess thread Wink

I think you've hit the nail on the head about not following the games these other chaps play. Why would I understand what Tom Dwan, JovialGent and Timex were discussing? If I thought I'd got it, I'd still have no way of knowing if i was applying it correctly.

One of the great beauties of chess is that you can enjoy it at your level, there's always more to learn and you can explore these at your leisure.
 
On reflection, that's three, isn't it?!


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« Reply #259 on: September 20, 2012, 01:21:25 AM »

Btw I know of a new chess website opening that's going To be owned by a pretty huge company that will shortly look for both full time and freelance guys. They will likely look for really passionate guys who can help all levels of players and really help them learn. Some of your advice is excellent, would you being interested in such a place or too busy/occupies elsewhere,
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« Reply #260 on: September 20, 2012, 01:27:54 AM »

Btw I know of a new chess website opening that's going To be owned by a pretty huge company that will shortly look for both full time and freelance guys. They will likely look for really passionate guys who can help all levels of players and really help them learn. Some of your advice is excellent, would you being interested in such a place or too busy/occupies elsewhere,

I am busy atm but I would be mad to say no without seeing the details.

Feel free to PM me when it's all up and running.
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« Reply #261 on: September 20, 2012, 08:53:22 AM »

Btw I know of a new chess website opening that's going To be owned by a pretty huge company that will shortly look for both full time and freelance guys. They will likely look for really passionate guys who can help all levels of players and really help them learn. Some of your advice is excellent, would you being interested in such a place or too busy/occupies elsewhere,

I am busy atm but I would be mad to say no without seeing the details.

Feel free to PM me when it's all up and running.

Is that because it is not permitted within the rules, or is considered bad form, or just because the players are above it?

"Move your Knight if you don't like money, my friend" or whatever would surely cast doubt in villains mind?

FWIW, I think it's good they do not do it, whatever the reason.
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« Reply #262 on: September 20, 2012, 10:28:05 AM »


Is poker style "speech play" allowed, or prevalent, in top level chess?

No, in a word.

At the very top level, you could hear a dust mite pass wind.


There's quite a bit of subtle stuff that goes on though (and the less subtle stuff such as Korchnoi and Karpov the 'best mates', kicking each other under the table during their World Championship matches!).

I remember playing county games (for Northamptonshire U12s at the time), and being on board 1, that was the game that was on the large demonstration board for everyone to follow. I'd be playing the board 1 from another county who I'd played quite a few times in county matches and also in other tournaments.

Because the games went on for a long time (especially when you're an eleven year old kid), you'd make a move, press the clock and then immediately get up and go for a walk whilst the opponent had a think. Obviously, if there was an obvious move in response you'd hang around, but if it gave them something to think about you could wander around, see how other games were going, or go to the loo.

I'd often stand up and examine the game on the demonstration board.  Sometimes it would also be fun to walk round and stand behind your opponent and view the game from his vantage point.  I remember playing against a lad called Paul Janew from Warwickshire (wonder what he's doing now), and at one stage I was stood behind his chair and he was stood behind mine, both of us examining the board from the other side! Sometimes it was done to intimidate the opponent, but more often than not it was done to make it a bit more interesting.

So although speech play wasn't done, there were lots of unspoken actions you could do to try and 'psyche-out' your opponent.
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« Reply #263 on: September 20, 2012, 10:36:47 AM »


Is poker style "speech play" allowed, or prevalent, in top level chess?

No, in a word.

At the very top level, you could hear a dust mite pass wind.


There's quite a bit of subtle stuff that goes on though (and the less subtle stuff such as Korchnoi and Karpov the 'best mates', kicking each other under the table during their World Championship matches!).

I remember playing county games (for Northamptonshire U12s at the time), and being on board 1, that was the game that was on the large demonstration board for everyone to follow. I'd be playing the board 1 from another county who I'd played quite a few times in county matches and also in other tournaments.

Because the games went on for a long time (especially when you're an eleven year old kid), you'd make a move, press the clock and then immediately get up and go for a walk whilst the opponent had a think. Obviously, if there was an obvious move in response you'd hang around, but if it gave them something to think about you could wander around, see how other games were going, or go to the loo.

I'd often stand up and examine the game on the demonstration board.  Sometimes it would also be fun to walk round and stand behind your opponent and view the game from his vantage point.  I remember playing against a lad called Paul Janew from Warwickshire (wonder what he's doing now), and at one stage I was stood behind his chair and he was stood behind mine, both of us examining the board from the other side! Sometimes it was done to intimidate the opponent, but more often than not it was done to make it a bit more interesting.

So although speech play wasn't done, there were lots of unspoken actions you could do to try and 'psyche-out' your opponent.


Lol, I think that would irk me a little, if Villain was stood behind me.

Good stuff, love this thread.
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« Reply #264 on: September 20, 2012, 10:43:48 AM »

Boshi finally comes clean. How do you do it in the rsq Smiley
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« Reply #265 on: September 20, 2012, 11:00:18 AM »


Is poker style "speech play" allowed, or prevalent, in top level chess?

No, in a word.

At the very top level, you could hear a dust mite pass wind.


There's quite a bit of subtle stuff that goes on though (and the less subtle stuff such as Korchnoi and Karpov the 'best mates', kicking each other under the table during their World Championship matches!).

I remember playing county games (for Northamptonshire U12s at the time), and being on board 1, that was the game that was on the large demonstration board for everyone to follow. I'd be playing the board 1 from another county who I'd played quite a few times in county matches and also in other tournaments.

Because the games went on for a long time (especially when you're an eleven year old kid), you'd make a move, press the clock and then immediately get up and go for a walk whilst the opponent had a think. Obviously, if there was an obvious move in response you'd hang around, but if it gave them something to think about you could wander around, see how other games were going, or go to the loo.

I'd often stand up and examine the game on the demonstration board.  Sometimes it would also be fun to walk round and stand behind your opponent and view the game from his vantage point.  I remember playing against a lad called Paul Janew from Warwickshire (wonder what he's doing now), and at one stage I was stood behind his chair and he was stood behind mine, both of us examining the board from the other side! Sometimes it was done to intimidate the opponent, but more often than not it was done to make it a bit more interesting.

So although speech play wasn't done, there were lots of unspoken actions you could do to try and 'psyche-out' your opponent.


Lol, I think that would irk me a little, if Villain was stood behind me.

Good stuff, love this thread.

But unlike in poker, there's no real advantage to be gained from standing behind them. It's not like you can see their cards. 

Cheating, although not common, did happen.  I was playing a tournament and a lad I was playing kept on going to the toilet.  I thought he'd had too much lemonade or something, but apparently (after some investigate sleuthing from my older brother) it turned out that he was going to the toilet and chatting to some older boys who were giving him advice on the game and what he should be playing. 

I was a few pawns down, and towards the end of the middle-game it wasn't looking good. Queens had been exchanged, but we both had two rooks and three of the minor pieces each. It seemed to be slipping inexorably into an endgame that I'd lose due to my pawn deficit. However, I wasn't going to lie down and accept defeat.  So instead I decided to go all out and attack, and if it went wrong then I'd just lose in fewer moves.  So whilst I was mounting my attack, the opponent would still be popping out to get his advice on what to do next, and his friends watching over the game seemed to be quite confident.  I was always a big fan of the knight, and thought many people underestimated how devastating they can be in the right situations. After a beautifully executed attack that combined my two knights and remaining bishop, I managed to force him into a position that meant I could fork his king and one of his rooks.  With that material advantage I then went on to take him apart and won the game comfortably in the end. 

I guess he needed cleverer mates Cheesy
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« Reply #266 on: September 20, 2012, 11:28:54 AM »

The walking behind your opponent thing is a way of literally seeing the position from a different perspective, too. It can help some players spot what Villain is up to.  Same goes for looking at the game on a demonstration board (if you are fortunate to do so - thin, boshi!)

Any weekend tournament will try to keep noise down to the absolute minimum. You get ticking clocks (almost exactly the same noise as the constant clickety-clack of riffling chips) but that is largely the only noise to be heard, apart from coughs and sneezes and the occasional "j'adoube" (said when a player touches a piece only to adjust it more centrally on the square and not intending to move it to another) or "check". An ungentlemanly conduct could result in a warning from the arbiter (TD) and possible sanctions such as exclusion could follow in extreme cases.

Despite the fact that you can be warned for talking near a game in progress (even if not about that game or about chess), some people wear earplugs while playing. MP3 players are banned.

I've seen players complain about their opponent sniffing all the time and find their cold-ridden opponent take umbridge by increasing the rate and ferocity of his inhalations. Actual rows have started over such absurdities.

The worst I ever saw was a game involving a blind player (they have their own board, aside from the main board, which has wooden pieces that the player can feel. The black pieces have a brass knob on the top so that they can be distinguished. The player - and the opponent - will call out their moves). The blind player was resting while his opponent thought. Perhaps because of a long weekend's games and poor air con, he fell asleep. He had not realised that his opponent has moved (because his opponent hadn't told him). The opponent not only didn't tell him, he didn't wake him up and went for a walk. The poor blind player ran out of time, despite the arbiter waking him and noticing that the opponent had moved.

I don't know what the outcome was of it all off the board, other than I thought the opponent was not a particularly nice person.
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« Reply #267 on: September 20, 2012, 11:33:13 AM »

The walking behind your opponent thing is a way of literally seeing the position from a different perspective, too. It can help some players spot what Villain is up to.  Same goes for looking at the game on a demonstration board (if you are fortunate to do so - thin, boshi!)

Any weekend tournament will try to keep noise down to the absolute minimum. You get ticking clocks (almost exactly the same noise as the constant clickety-clack of riffling chips) but that is largely the only noise to be heard, apart from coughs and sneezes and the occasional "j'adoube" (said when a player touches a piece only to adjust it more centrally on the square and not intending to move it to another) or "check". An ungentlemanly conduct could result in a warning from the arbiter (TD) and possible sanctions such as exclusion could follow in extreme cases.

Despite the fact that you can be warned for talking near a game in progress (even if not about that game or about chess), some people wear earplugs while playing. MP3 players are banned.

I've seen players complain about their opponent sniffing all the time and find their cold-ridden opponent take umbridge by increasing the rate and ferocity of his inhalations. Actual rows have started over such absurdities.

The worst I ever saw was a game involving a blind player (they have their own board, aside from the main board, which has wooden pieces that the player can feel. The black pieces have a brass knob on the top so that they can be distinguished. The player - and the opponent - will call out their moves). The blind player was resting while his opponent thought. Perhaps because of a long weekend's games and poor air con, he fell asleep. He had not realised that his opponent has moved (because his opponent hadn't told him). The opponent not only didn't tell him, he didn't wake him up and went for a walk. The poor blind player ran out of time, despite the arbiter waking him and noticing that the opponent had moved.

I don't know what the outcome was of it all off the board, other than I thought the opponent was not a particularly nice person.


Would the oppo get a little cross with me if I just turned the board round the other way?
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« Reply #268 on: September 20, 2012, 11:36:36 AM »

The walking behind your opponent thing is a way of literally seeing the position from a different perspective, too. It can help some players spot what Villain is up to.  Same goes for looking at the game on a demonstration board (if you are fortunate to do so - thin, boshi!)

Any weekend tournament will try to keep noise down to the absolute minimum. You get ticking clocks (almost exactly the same noise as the constant clickety-clack of riffling chips) but that is largely the only noise to be heard, apart from coughs and sneezes and the occasional "j'adoube" (said when a player touches a piece only to adjust it more centrally on the square and not intending to move it to another) or "check". An ungentlemanly conduct could result in a warning from the arbiter (TD) and possible sanctions such as exclusion could follow in extreme cases.

Despite the fact that you can be warned for talking near a game in progress (even if not about that game or about chess), some people wear earplugs while playing. MP3 players are banned.

I've seen players complain about their opponent sniffing all the time and find their cold-ridden opponent take umbridge by increasing the rate and ferocity of his inhalations. Actual rows have started over such absurdities.

The worst I ever saw was a game involving a blind player (they have their own board, aside from the main board, which has wooden pieces that the player can feel. The black pieces have a brass knob on the top so that they can be distinguished. The player - and the opponent - will call out their moves). The blind player was resting while his opponent thought. Perhaps because of a long weekend's games and poor air con, he fell asleep. He had not realised that his opponent has moved (because his opponent hadn't told him). The opponent not only didn't tell him, he didn't wake him up and went for a walk. The poor blind player ran out of time, despite the arbiter waking him and noticing that the opponent had moved.

I don't know what the outcome was of it all off the board, other than I thought the opponent was not a particularly nice person.


I confess, that would absolutely do my head in.

There is a chap in my office who sniffs incessently, & I have to fight the urge to go & offer him a handkerchief. Or teach him some manners. I understand hay fever & the like, thats wholly understandable & accepted, but regular sniffing just grates so. 

Sniffing seems so much more common these days. Ugh.
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« Reply #269 on: September 21, 2012, 10:13:44 PM »

I know some of you like puzzles and some of you like stories, so I have a bit of each for you today; a carvery for the mind.

Get your gold coins ready.

The United States has seemingly had someone in the upper echelons of every game since we gave them a key to the place 250 years ago. Although chess history is saturated in Soviets, there has almost always been a Yank in there somewhere, swinging like Scrappy-Doo (not like the Krankies). Fischer, Morphy, Reshevsky, Nakamura and Kamsky are all star-spangled-banner-waving chess heroes, the last two being current Super-GMs.

I have missed a big name, though: Frank Marshall.

Marshall was a fearsome sort. Born in New York City in 1877, but moving to Canada during his school years, Marshall was the best player in Montreal by the time he was 13, despite only having learned the moves three years earlier.



Marshall was able to challenge for the World Title in 1907 against the best player of the age, Emanuel Lasker, but was beaten soundly. In those days, matches were decided by the player who was the first to win a specified number of games, rather than seeing a player get one up and try to draw the rest. Lasker won 8, drew 7 and lost none of the games he and Marshall played. Tough to get more convincing than that.

His greatest weapon was his sensational vision for combinations, sacrifices and tactics. If Petrosian were a precision sniper rifle, with telescopic sight and infra-red technology, Marshall would be a blunderbuss. 

This is how I see Marshall: there are people and teams in every sport who are brilliant at beating the patzers; they get ahead quickly and are showered and changed before even the greats are through to the next round. When it comes to playing the very, very best, though, they get found out. Like the big servers in tennis, who beat everyone until they come up against the big four.

His style allowed him to be a giant killer, too, of course, and I’d be doing him a tremendous disservice, were I not to confirm that he was a feared opponent and played absolutely everyone. He held the US Championship title for 27 years and finished halfway up in what is often cited as the greatest tournament of all time: the 1914 St Petersburg tournament. This is a man who was in the top ten players in the world for some time.

The position I am going to show you this evening is taken from his game against Levitsky, played in Breslau in 1912. Levitsky blundered and lost a knight early on. When he went for some counterplay, Marshall played a move that immediately won him the game.

It is widely reported that, on witnessing this move, the spectators showered the board with gold coins, so awestruck and amazed were they with what they had just witnessed.

Here is the position:



It is Marshall (black) to move. He has a rook hitting his queen now, so he needs to think about that. The rook on h3 can’t be taken by White at the moment, because then Black will play Nf3+, delivering check and picking up the queen.

For those of you who spot the killer blow, remember that you have to see ALL of the combinations. When you go to bet in poker, you should have in mind what you would do if the villain folds, calls or raises. Same applies in chess: you don’t play a move because you are hoping the villain misses something and, if he doesn’t, you’re knackered!

Once you are satisfied – or had enough – here’s a walk through.



The killer move is exactly 5 minutes in, although you might enjoy the build-up.

If Sid Waddell had been around a century earlier and had commentated on chess, he might actually have exploded.
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