Live Streams - Hole cards or not?

[skolsuper]

How about everyone's cards are hidden by default but viewers of the live stream can pay say 10p to look at a certain hand, and then that 10p goes to the player. The players get rewarded for providing entertainment and the viewers get to see all the hands they want almost for free.

[The Camel]

Interesting debate!

Fair play to you Keith for getting away with not showing your cards, did you actually sign a waiver that said you were required to at the beginning of the tournament?

I have to say that if it was at a tournament that I organised and you signed the waiver you would have been first warned, if you carried on given a penalty and if you persisted after that disqualified. As far I see it is the same as breaking any other tournament rule.

We do get asked occasionally by players who are about to sign these at our events if we will enforce it (we would) and I can only recall one occasion that the player decided not to play rather than sign it.

Personally I think there are better ways to make a live stream more interesting than showing hole cards. However when we live stream an event we do so at the organisers spec and if that includes having hole cards on a delay then that is their choice. The only event that we organise as well as stream that has hole cards is Goliath and I think that is the kind of event it should be reserved for. I also think that events shown live to a massive audience on TV or like the WSOP benefit but I think they should be filmed in a segregated area with no access to the stream or outside world. If you are not segregating then everybody should have access to the stream as it is broadcast. We have displayed a delayed stream in the room before and it went down very well.

At the end of the day the usual rules of supply & demand will come into effect and hole-cards will only be not shown on a regular basis if a) the players stop turning up because of it or b) the organisers decide it is not worth the cost.

In the UK at the moment players have the best choice they have ever had. With the likes of Dtd, Grosvenor, Genting and Pokerstars all either guaranteeing or adding money to events there has never been so much value or choice for the players. This will only stay if the organisers feel that the cost/risks are worth it. Part of the reason they do it is for exposure and live streams are part of exploiting this. Some obviously feel that hole-cards make a big difference, some not. I am sure debates like this will help along the way to how things develop for the future but to say players get nothing in return is not looking at the big picture. There are no games without someone to organise them.

Alex's point is very relevant and I am sure one of the reasons why hole-cards are so popular. A good commentator costs a lot more than having the hole-card technology...

DtD use the same technology as the EPO & ourselves, to not show your cards you just have to make sure they do not go on the RFID reader in front of you.

No, I didn't sign a waiver. Obviously would have shown my cards if I had.

I would probably have grumpily agreed to show my cards if they had added money to the pool.

Interested to know what the viewing figures for these live streams are?

I've very rarely watched one, would only do so if I had a % of someone in a final. And would definitely never watch a stream before the ft. Far too boring.

Prefer written and interactive updates by far.

[luckyblind]

No, I didn't sign a waiver. Obviously would have shown my cards if I had.

I would probably have grumpily agreed to show my cards if they had added money to the pool.

Interested to know what the viewing figures for these live streams are?

I've very rarely watched one, would only do so if I had a % of someone in a final. And would definitely never watch a stream before the ft. Far too boring.

Prefer written and interactive updates by far.

Well if you didn't sign a waiver there's not much they can do.

Obviously I can't publish viewing figures without consent of clients but the lowest we ever had was 700 uniques for a weekend and the most was 20k in a day. There is usually a lot more viewers watching online than there is at the venue. Due to the niche nature I would expect them all to be valid opportunities for marketing compared to a minutely small % of viewers watching a mainstream TV show. On average a viewer watches around an hour of a full day stream.

Other than professional interest I only watch a stream if a good friend or someone I have a % in is playing. After spending my early poker career as an updater I have seen enough poker hands to last me a lifetime. When I first got into the game I watched all the TV shows with great interest but now it is very rare that I continue watching  stream after I have got all the info I need from it. Sometimes if Jesse, Padraig or Neil are on good form I might stay listening for entertainment.

[Karabiner]

I must say that ever since they were introduced I have felt uncomfortable about cards that can be identified by the individual micro-chips in them far more than the regular decks which are only seen via the under-table cameras and which can be avoided if so desired.

Does anyone else share my concern or am I being paranoid?

[ripple11]

So few hands are played I'm not sure there's enough data to turn this into usable information.. even for very clev people.

Pretty sure most of us are already stereotyped by our competition, to a point where the actual cards won't change initial perceptions all that much

good point.

Also it would good tournament practice if the players/table changed regularly to nullify as much as possible, any information being accessed.

[tikay]

I must say that ever since they were introduced I have felt uncomfortable about cards that can be identified by the individual micro-chips in them far more than the regular decks which are only seen via the under-table cameras and which can be avoided if so desired.

Does anyone else share my concern or am I being paranoid?

You can, if you so wish, easily " mask" the cards with your hands to hide them from the card-reader.

[action man]

surely this si a case of vote with feet?

[luckyblind]

I must say that ever since they were introduced I have felt uncomfortable about cards that can be identified by the individual micro-chips in them far more than the regular decks which are only seen via the under-table cameras and which can be avoided if so desired.

Does anyone else share my concern or am I being paranoid?

The reader that takes the information of the chip on the card will only pick the data up if it is in very close proximity to the cards. If a more powerful reader (i don't know if they exist or not) was used by someone to try and get the info on what cards a player had then it would pick up all the cards on the table and be useless to them. Plus the chip is basically a long barcode and only the computer that is used for the table knows what barcode matches each card.

When we do this the computer that does all the reading of cards and graphic generation is not network connected so it cannot be hacked by anyone.

[MANTIS01]

I think that as long as the organisers take the necessary steps to protect the integrity of the game, and make sure the players on a feature are all on the same footing, then its fine

So communication devices need to be taken off players until they are knocked out from a final feature table or players sequestered throughout

DTD does this. Furthermore you cannot access the stream if you are on the premises, whether on the rail or the table with the exception of a locked commentary room in an office

If this is not done, then the only solution is to show the stream in the club for all feature player tables to see (if hole cards are still being shown)

My problem with the EPO was that some players had info others did not

DTD have spent extensively on stream equipment but don't have the problems experienced last week in my opinion

I would say building an image and being aware of that image are two fundamental elements of good poker, esp in the live game with people watching you closely. When hole card information is available it interferes with that process of building an image. So if for eg I want to build a tight image it's kinda inconvenient that the organisers show my oppos mid-game that isn't the case. And if I don't know whether or not other players have accessed my hole card info I wont have a clue how I appear to the various people at the table. Did seat 2 see my bluff or does he still think I had the nuts?

Before streams a player could build and trade off a chosen image and that player could be certain how he appeared to his oppos because all the info was there at the table. Anybody who organises a comp and then interferes with such basic elements of the game can't be regarded as taking steps to protect the integrity of the game.

[Karabiner]

I must say that ever since they were introduced I have felt uncomfortable about cards that can be identified by the individual micro-chips in them far more than the regular decks which are only seen via the under-table cameras and which can be avoided if so desired.

Does anyone else share my concern or am I being paranoid?

The reader that takes the information of the chip on the card will only pick the data up if it is in very close proximity to the cards. If a more powerful reader (i don't know if they exist or not) was used by someone to try and get the info on what cards a player had then it would pick up all the cards on the table and be useless to them. Plus the chip is basically a long barcode and only the computer that is used for the table knows what barcode matches each card.

When we do this the computer that does all the reading of cards and graphic generation is not network connected so it cannot be hacked by anyone.

Thanks for the explanation, I feel a little more comfortable with them now.

[BorntoBubble]

As a recreational player i think its very good for the game if i make a feature table then my friends and family will log in, the same friends and family maybe the people that ending up punting money into poker and with new money in the game it lines the pockets of the pros. I think the game needs things like this to get new players involved and sometimes the pros are going to have to sacrifice there imagine for 100 or so hands for the good of the game. These kind of things will get new players playing which is always good for the game. The key for me is when live streams are showing people should be using social media to get those outside of the poker world watching.

[DMorgan]

How about everyone that wants to watch the stream has to chip in 5p

Then they can distribute those 5ps to all the players. Then the players have been compensated for the equity loss of having hole card cams and have made enough profit to buy a Curly Wurly on the way home too.

Magic.

[rfgqqabc]

How about everyone that wants to watch the stream has to chip in 5p

Then they can distribute those 5ps to all the players. Then the players have been compensated for the equity loss of having hole card cams and have made enough profit to buy a Curly Wurly on the way home too.

Magic.

Much prefer to have any equity lost paid directly in Curly Wurlys at the table.

[scotty77]

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

[shipitonetime]

Anything that increases exposure of the game is a good thing and live streams with hole cards are obv what people want.  It's clearly good for the game and I think that the information that can be gleaned during a few hours at a feature table is marginal at best.

This!