Markup??

[Cf]

Sell at 1.0 unless you have evidence to back up being able to sell for more.

And don't assume ROI = markup. E.g. if your ROI is 120% 20% then selling at 1.2 is not good for a backer as you are offering them an even money proposition.

FYP

As far as I've noticed nobody had pointed out that this was wrong.

Yeah, thought I'd got that wrong lol. If someone was 120% then I'd more than happily buy at 1.2!

[titaniumbean]

I think its important to realise that the WSOP Main Event is a very different proposition than pretty much any other tournament, this is due to both the field size (and hence the huge prizes available at the FT) and the fact that there are significantly higher % of weaker players (thanks to the large amounts of satellite winners/people taking shots) than you would get in any tournament of equivalent size. Therefore any competent online tournament player is going to be able to justify a markup much higher than 1.25, markups of 1.4-1.6 are far from ridiculous for this specific tournament, and not taking this into account is a pretty big mistake.

Like anything else in poker, you have to consider the notional long run when you determine the value of markup and given the specific factors of the WSOP ME much higher markups can be justified IMO.

  

exactly it's not necessarily helpful to talk specifically about ME because it's so unusual, I just referenced myself because I didn't want to seem to be calling other people out. Could quite easily go into live board/2+2 and see people selling at higher than what I sold for ME for random live comps ...... valueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


There have been some great discussions on 2+2 a while back and another one recently about all of this, and about marketplace liquidity and just how ridic some people price themselves up at.

It always irks me when someone wants to sell at a decent markup whilst also selling 50%+ of themselves, if you're selling a 10% sweat for a tournament you are rolled for then an over the top markup is alot more acceptable, rather than people just picking numbers out of the air and comparing them to other peoples threads and getting themselves as close to a freeroll as possible.




yeh what kinboshi said silly colours get scrolled past.

[TL900]

JB, just ask Tommy Langley (I'm guessing he's someone who has observed you play live a fair bit and he has a deep understanding of the game) what he thinks you're worth in, say a DTD 300 Deepstack and a UKIPT.

That's about the right answer and then you can add a bit for whatever goodwill you might get from different target buyers. It's not something to wrangle with in a faux scientific or mathematical way as you won't get any answer above 1.0, mathematically speaking.

auction /end thread

Let the market decide.

FWIW John, if I was selling right now I would be selling for UKIPT Cork @ 1.2. Take from that what you will.

[titaniumbean]

JB, just ask Tommy Langley (I'm guessing he's someone who has observed you play live a fair bit and he has a deep understanding of the game) what he thinks you're worth in, say a DTD 300 Deepstack and a UKIPT.

That's about the right answer and then you can add a bit for whatever goodwill you might get from different target buyers. It's not something to wrangle with in a faux scientific or mathematical way as you won't get any answer above 1.0, mathematically speaking.

auction /end thread

Let the market decide.

FWIW John, if I was selling right now I would be selling for UKIPT Cork @ 1.2. Take from that what you will.

how much value to the staker do you think you are providing?   or should I say at what point do you think you become a breakeven stake assuming everyone knows you can be trusted implicitly.

[TL900]

JB, just ask Tommy Langley (I'm guessing he's someone who has observed you play live a fair bit and he has a deep understanding of the game) what he thinks you're worth in, say a DTD 300 Deepstack and a UKIPT.

That's about the right answer and then you can add a bit for whatever goodwill you might get from different target buyers. It's not something to wrangle with in a faux scientific or mathematical way as you won't get any answer above 1.0, mathematically speaking.

auction /end thread

Let the market decide.

FWIW John, if I was selling right now I would be selling for UKIPT Cork @ 1.2. Take from that what you will.

how much value to the staker do you think you are providing?   or should I say at what point do you think you become a breakeven stake assuming everyone knows you can be trusted implicitly.

I think my roi in a UKIPT would be >40% if I could play enough games to get a true ROI, but that is the problem. You can never find your true ROI in a specific tournament.

[titaniumbean]

JB, just ask Tommy Langley (I'm guessing he's someone who has observed you play live a fair bit and he has a deep understanding of the game) what he thinks you're worth in, say a DTD 300 Deepstack and a UKIPT.

That's about the right answer and then you can add a bit for whatever goodwill you might get from different target buyers. It's not something to wrangle with in a faux scientific or mathematical way as you won't get any answer above 1.0, mathematically speaking.

auction /end thread

Let the market decide.

FWIW John, if I was selling right now I would be selling for UKIPT Cork @ 1.2. Take from that what you will.

how much value to the staker do you think you are providing?   or should I say at what point do you think you become a breakeven stake assuming everyone knows you can be trusted implicitly.

I think my roi in a UKIPT would be >40% if I could play enough games to get a true ROI, but that is the problem. You can never find your true ROI in a specific tournament.

obv I do know that, i'm just trying to quantify what value people think they are providing.

[fizix87]

There was a decent amount of discussion on 2p2 about similar issues this summer caused by Galen Hall's very high markups for various WSOP/Venetian events http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/184/staking-selling-shares-live/galen-hall-2012-summer-selling-1204267/

A good read if people can be bothered reading through a 200+ post thread

[Junior Senior]

This again? Really?,!

[titaniumbean]

ha Galen hall and his 1.6 for the toughest 6max 10k you can find. Hilarious levelling banter....... and he claims to be 'really intelligent'.

[jgcblack]

Incred that there are 5 pages saying:

JB is worth zero mark up but could probably sell at a mark up because people are nice/dumb/gamblers whatever

I think JB needs to really know he's worth say 1.23 so I have prepared a template which probably doesn't need much tampering


Baseline                                                           1.0:
Crush $10NL online (regularly for $30+ scores)        1.03
Insane hedge at live bowl comps                          1.11
Sort of listened to poker coach                             1.13
Posted HH's, very few totes spewy                       1.16
Played a few deepstacks at DTD, went 'deep'         1.18
Friend of Eurekans                                             1.20
Learning blog up and running                                1.23

Think that's about right - 2% please at 1.23

Such brutal, yet informed damage.

You win sir, nh, wp.

[jgcblack]

And from such a nice guy... makes it all the more cutting.

I've got a feeling you had a missed calling as a surgeon, sir.

[T8MML]

A genuine question from an old fart who has never sold or bought at mark up.

"how do you arrive at the figure you are prepared to pay or charge?"

Are you results driven? I've seen players selling themselves at 1.2-1.3 who I wouldn't say are any value at premium - (of course all blonde members are ) but some seem to have a higher opinion of their game than the results suggest.

Then I see really good consistent players at the same "price" - hard to understand to me.

Do you evaluate somebody by their style of play, ie. out early or massive chipstack or do you go for somebody like yours truely who will "allegedly" sits there all day waiting for aces but may have a high cash to entry ratio ?

Somebody has great online scores but hasn't as yet delivered live. How do you arrive at a price?

I like the idea of auctions, demand deciding price.

Just interested to hear from those that do



Btw I'm selling......

This is exactly the point of the thread, sir.

congrats on your advent entry!


@Keys - I understand youre in charge of the staking board (or a mod of some kind)
Can you help here?

Sorry to hi jack your thread JB but I'm too shy to start my own

Tbh it looks like 1.2 is ok and anything higher needs defending. The ME comments are interesting though. Does nobody take into account exs or is that not the done thing?

I'm such a novice. Like I say never thought of selling or buying outside of mates but thx for feedback

[Marky147]

Sorry to hi jack your thread JB but I'm too shy to start my own

Tbh it looks like 1.2 is ok and anything higher needs defending. The ME comments are interesting though. Does nobody take into account exs or is that not the done thing?

I'm such a novice. Like I say never thought of selling or buying outside of mates but thx for feedback

Almost there

#gettingreadyforonedrop2013

[aaron1867]

I am not sure if it is sometimes supply and demand? I am sure there are a few members on here that have took a % in someone as just a punt rather than considering the mark up they have advertised at.

You can go back pages in this thread and someone mentioned about Daniel Morgan being able to sell his package at 1.6, because it's a 'soft' field and full of businessmen, etc. But everyone else who I can remember was selling at max 1.3 & are far better players. I think some people actually keep on adding to their mark up as they think about it even more, by thinking "I think I am 1.15, but I'll round it upto 1.2"

There isn't many people in the staking boards who are anywhere near the mark up they are selling at. The only who is perhaps close is Alex & fair play to him.

As for John Black, I try to keep up with most diaries on here, but everytime I read his diary it is a HH from a live cash game, no mark up needed imo.

I sell now and again and always at a very decent rate.

[mondatoo]

Ya the current status quo is the contradiction imo not me.


I sold at 1.25 for the WSOP ME last year because I HAD To sell to play and it's a 10k and it's a one off tournament, + I have no specific record to show live, I wanted TO PROVIDE VALUE to people backing me not just spread the variance and pay 7.2% of the buyin myself.



Many threads I see on here AND on 2+2 I just look at the markup and think you'll be alreeet pet.



Many market place buyers can be punters etc and don't necessarily have to have any idea about roi/variance/the maths of goddam donkathons!  Just because someone sells out doesn't mean it was good value or even fair value. It just sold out. That cant last.



There is also lots of other factors going into the fact of sending money to random people, I would pay a higher markup for someone that I know in person and know that I can trust than I would for someone who is most likely a better ROI proposition but who I don't know if they will actually pay out. Obviously most of the time you expect to lose with backing so it's not normally a problem that matters, But it's definitely something that should be taken into consideration.

Feels like a dig at me