Markup??

[claypole]

Put a thread up at 1.2 and see if it's sells, that's fine and JBs choice.  I think it's just solid advice about building a reputation, part of community and demonstrating some results. No disrespect to jb, I don't know him - however as one of the most active stakers here I wouldn't buy at 1.2, I might do at spot in a £1000 plus buy in - well probably would at spot to give him a spin. That's just my opinion, like you say Guy if others bought at 1.2 their prerogative.

[action man]

if i think someone is a 1.0 shot i wont buy unless its 0.8, im looking for a decent discrepancy from my own tissue mark up. Thats why im a very rare staker on the boards. Im usually hunting around my skype group chat in case anyone is taking a shot on their own dime and having some of a package at ~1.1

[T8MML]

if i think someone is a 1.0 shot i wont buy unless its 0.8, im looking for a decent discrepancy from my own tissue mark up. Thats why im a very rare staker on the boards. Im usually hunting around my skype group chat in case anyone is taking a shot on their own dime and having some of a package at ~1.1

Honoured and very humbled - you bought a piece of me at spot once, I must be good.

(second thoughts it was a swop for some %age of a dodgy bet you were having )

One of us got a return (whistle)

[action man]

if i think someone is a 1.0 shot i wont buy unless its 0.8, im looking for a decent discrepancy from my own tissue mark up. Thats why im a very rare staker on the boards. Im usually hunting around my skype group chat in case anyone is taking a shot on their own dime and having some of a package at ~1.1

Honoured and very humbled - you bought a piece of me at spot once, I must be good.

(second thoughts it was a swop for some %age of a dodgy bet you were having )

One of us got a return (whistle)

eventually...

[T8MML]

if i think someone is a 1.0 shot i wont buy unless its 0.8, im looking for a decent discrepancy from my own tissue mark up. Thats why im a very rare staker on the boards. Im usually hunting around my skype group chat in case anyone is taking a shot on their own dime and having some of a package at ~1.1

Honoured and very humbled - you bought a piece of me at spot once, I must be good.

(second thoughts it was a swop for some %age of a dodgy bet you were having )

One of us got a return (whistle)

eventually...

Tap in


My Mrs still goes on about a bloke shouting across a Dublin hotel lobby "you owe me...." lol

[action man]

you would have won aswelll if it hadn't been for those pesky kids

[T8MML]

you would have won aswelll if it hadn't been for those pesky kids

"leaks"

[Boba Fett]

Given that pretty much 100% of staking proposals include the 'juice' there's already an implied mark up if ROI comparisons are being made.
Selling 10% of a DTD £300 at £33.60 is selling the prize pool at 1.12

This is a good point and one I'd considered myself. I think in general though we all accept the reg fee to be part of the tournament buyin.

Personally I think charging for expenses is ok in certain situations. I generally don't bother due to arguments it'd cause but say I decide to go play the DTD £300. I can either drive home and not get much sleep or book a hotel and get a decent nights sleep. It's in my interest and the backer's interest for me to get the hotel. Let's say the hotel is £50 then the overal cost is:

£300 entry
£36 juice
£50 hotel
= £386

So 10% here would be £38.60 - a markup of 1.286. Given any backers are going to get an equal share with me of any prize money then I think it fair this expense is included in the package - otherwise the tournament is more profitable for the backer than it is for me, and that's not even including the effort required by the player.

The difference for me comes down to "would that expense be incurred anyway?". So food/drink etc I'd never dream of including. But in my case I wouldn't play the tournament if I didn't get the staking. So it's not like i'd be paying the £50 regardless. So in that sense I think it's fair to include it in the cost of the tournament.

One final point is my staking requests are few and far between and are generally one offs. If I ask for staking it's because I want to play a tournament and am seeking financial help to do so. In this instance I'm more inclined to write off the expense as the staking is allowing me to play a tournament I'd otherwise not get to play.

Sorry but thats pretty ridic thinking you could add the charge of a hotel room or any other expenses.  If you're not prepared to eat the cost of the expenses to play a tournament then dont play it, you cant pass that onto backers.  Backers are buying a share in the tournament that you are deciding you want to play and should only have to buy a piece of the tournament only.  Where would it end?  What if the  only hotel you could get for the night was a £200 per night hotel?  just flick it in and charge the backers?  Room service? go for it and charge the backers, massage during the tournament will help you relax and play better, cool lets go for an hour and charge the backers.  Are you gonna add costs of flghts, taxi to the airport, cost of a new suitcase, some sunglasses for the table so you dont give off any tells, dinner at the dinner break, taxi to the casino etc

And for anyone thinking that expenses are just a natural cost of playing live poker and can be added when selling pieces, do you realise there are thousands of tournaments available 24/7 online and you dont have to leave the house?

[titaniumbean]

cf not only is it TL;DR but its FPC;DR

Fucking Painfully Colourful Didn't Read

[pleno1]

Aaron is such a wombat its untrue.

[kinboshi]

Aaron is such a wombat its untrue.

Bit harsh on wombats, especially the really cute baby albino ones:

[Cf]

Given that pretty much 100% of staking proposals include the 'juice' there's already an implied mark up if ROI comparisons are being made.
Selling 10% of a DTD £300 at £33.60 is selling the prize pool at 1.12

This is a good point and one I'd considered myself. I think in general though we all accept the reg fee to be part of the tournament buyin.

Personally I think charging for expenses is ok in certain situations. I generally don't bother due to arguments it'd cause but say I decide to go play the DTD £300. I can either drive home and not get much sleep or book a hotel and get a decent nights sleep. It's in my interest and the backer's interest for me to get the hotel. Let's say the hotel is £50 then the overal cost is:

£300 entry
£36 juice
£50 hotel
= £386

So 10% here would be £38.60 - a markup of 1.286. Given any backers are going to get an equal share with me of any prize money then I think it fair this expense is included in the package - otherwise the tournament is more profitable for the backer than it is for me, and that's not even including the effort required by the player.

The difference for me comes down to "would that expense be incurred anyway?". So food/drink etc I'd never dream of including. But in my case I wouldn't play the tournament if I didn't get the staking. So it's not like i'd be paying the £50 regardless. So in that sense I think it's fair to include it in the cost of the tournament.

One final point is my staking requests are few and far between and are generally one offs. If I ask for staking it's because I want to play a tournament and am seeking financial help to do so. In this instance I'm more inclined to write off the expense as the staking is allowing me to play a tournament I'd otherwise not get to play.

Sorry but thats pretty ridic thinking you could add the charge of a hotel room or any other expenses.  If you're not prepared to eat the cost of the expenses to play a tournament then dont play it, you cant pass that onto backers.  Backers are buying a share in the tournament that you are deciding you want to play and should only have to buy a piece of the tournament only.  Where would it end?  What if the  only hotel you could get for the night was a £200 per night hotel?  just flick it in and charge the backers?  Room service? go for it and charge the backers, massage during the tournament will help you relax and play better, cool lets go for an hour and charge the backers.  Are you gonna add costs of flghts, taxi to the airport, cost of a new suitcase, some sunglasses for the table so you dont give off any tells, dinner at the dinner break, taxi to the casino etc

And for anyone thinking that expenses are just a natural cost of playing live poker and can be added when selling pieces, do you realise there are thousands of tournaments available 24/7 online and you dont have to leave the house?

Your where would it end argument doesn't really hold because if someone decided to add an expense for room service then you can clearly tell them to gtfo. But if a proposal was to clearly point out what expense was included then I don't see a problem with that.

I think it applies more to longer term staking deals. If I was suddenly rich and wanted to stake someone to fly around the world playing EPTs/WSOP/etc then I think it more than fair that the prices of travel/accommodation be included as part of the deal.

If you were to offer to stake me 50% in a bit of a round the world trip, but I had to pay all the travel/accomodation myself then i'd be likely saying no. By the time I got around to spending all that money the tournaments would suddenly be -EV for me and +EV for the backer. By factoring the expenses into the deal you can end up with a situation that is +EV for both backer and player.

As I say, for a one off trip down the DTD I'm happy to swallow the expense myself and accept it's probably -EV for me to play in the tournament. My reason for staking/playing isn't neccesarily to make a profit.

You can also argue it back the other way. Only £300 goes into the prizepool. Why should the backer have to pay their share of the £36? That's an expense of running/being in the tournament.

[action man]

agree with keeping expenses off the mark up. If you dont want to pay them, play online

[Pugwashed]

You can also argue it back the other way. Only £300 goes into the prizepool. Why should the backer have to pay their share of the £36? That's an expense of running/being in the tournament.

Because the registration fee is part of the buyin. When people talk about ROI the registration fee is included in the buyin when ROI is calculated. So if the buyin was £300+36 a break even player would be cashing for £336 on average. A player with an ROI of 10% would be cashing for £369.6 on average.

Expenses shouldn't be the reason you charge a markup. Say if you thought the fairest price for you to sell for would be 1.1 based on results / ability you might decide with the expenses its not worth you playing and selling unless you sell for >1.3, in that case you should either not play or charge 1.1 and accept that it might be a -EV punt for you.

[aaron1867]

It shows how ridic the mark up was when it didn't get even close to selling out. Better players sold their Vegas packages for a lot lower price & sold out.

also, putting expenses into packages are lol, nobody asked you to go to Prague to play poker. Free holiday just about then?