Things I wish I knew

[Tal]

My post sounded a bit ranty, but I mean it more in the sense that science - the facts on which we apply logic and reason - can be just as fantastic as religious concepts.

We make much of what we know and it is great that we push boundaries to learn and understand more.

Pythagoras is believed to have killed someone for proving that √2 is irrational (cannot be expressed as a fraction). A few hundred years ago, someone who made a wire heat up through a potato would have been burned as a witch.

Richard Dawkins enjoys arguing that all religion is false and it is easy to mock the only response of 'these are matter beyond mortal comprehension'.

There's no reason why there couldn't exist tree sprites (some seemingly completely rational people believe in them like they believe in the existence of television), more intelligent life on other planets or an infinite number of universes with different laws of physics applying.

It could all be like the end of Men In Black.

One of the great joys of life itself - the one area where scientist and spiritual guide agree emphatically - is that we know something is pulling the strings but we don't know what.

It is great to have reached rational conclusions but be receptive to new ideas and respectful (at least open minded) of the possibility that another view of the world might carry some weight.

If the universe is infinite, there can't be an infinite number of universes, can there?

My head always starts to hurt when I think about stuff like this.

Technically...yes, there can be, although I forget whether the multiverse theorists apply it here.

There are an infinite number of odd numbers but there are also an infinite number of even numbers. Together, they make an infinite number of positive integers.

Then there are the same again negative.

And all the decimals.

Plus zero.

[Tal]

Georg Cantor is your man for that

[kinboshi]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]


My argument would be for one single piece of evidence to show that god exists, let this piece of evidence be tested, and if it is shown to be irrefutably correct, then I will believe.

I disagree that science is as 'fantastic' as religious ideas, especially when fantastic is defined as "remote from reality".  Science is about being able to test hypothesis and correct them as new evidence is found.  It's about testing held 'truths', in fact science is about disproving held truths.  Religion is quite the opposite.  It's about NOT trying to disprove fantastic beliefs based on nothing but faith.

As for the infinite number of universes, I've not heard an argument for it that makes sense to me - but that's probably because of my misunderstanding of the idea.

[The Camel]

My post sounded a bit ranty, but I mean it more in the sense that science - the facts on which we apply logic and reason - can be just as fantastic as religious concepts.

We make much of what we know and it is great that we push boundaries to learn and understand more.

Pythagoras is believed to have killed someone for proving that √2 is irrational (cannot be expressed as a fraction). A few hundred years ago, someone who made a wire heat up through a potato would have been burned as a witch.

Richard Dawkins enjoys arguing that all religion is false and it is easy to mock the only response of 'these are matter beyond mortal comprehension'.

There's no reason why there couldn't exist tree sprites (some seemingly completely rational people believe in them like they believe in the existence of television), more intelligent life on other planets or an infinite number of universes with different laws of physics applying.

It could all be like the end of Men In Black.

One of the great joys of life itself - the one area where scientist and spiritual guide agree emphatically - is that we know something is pulling the strings but we don't know what.

It is great to have reached rational conclusions but be receptive to new ideas and respectful (at least open minded) of the possibility that another view of the world might carry some weight.

If the universe is infinite, there can't be an infinite number of universes, can there?

My head always starts to hurt when I think about stuff like this.

Technically...yes, there can be, although I forget whether the multiverse theorists apply it here.

There are an infinite number of odd numbers but there are also an infinite number of even numbers. Together, they make an infinite number of positive integers.

Then there are the same again negative.

And all the decimals.

Plus zero.

If the universe is everything, there cannot be more than everything.

Can there?

[Jon MW]

...
Pythagoras is believed to have killed someone for proving that √2 is irrational (cannot be expressed as a fraction). ...

I'd hate to be geeky* but Pythagoras wouldn't have done it - he was a demi-god leader of the cult; but also it's more likely that the follower was killed because he told someone outside of the School anything about what the Pythagoreans had done rather than because of what he specifically said.

Although there is no evidence from anywhere particularly close to the time so it's hard to tell.

Also interesting* to bring Pythagoras into a discussion about Religion and Science - the Pythagoreans were pretty much a religious cult who studied science so it was pretty indivisible for them.




*this might not be true

[kinboshi]

Science and religion are easily divisible. One is falsifiable.   The other is just false.

[Tal]

The Pythag debate is a fun one:

http://old.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?start=0&t=6300

That is if he existed at all.

[Jon MW]

The Pythag debate is a fun one:

http://old.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?start=0&t=6300

That is if he existed at all.

hmmmm - that's possibly not the most well informed of debates, with the historical data at least.

I've read 'quite a lot' on the subject, including my own copy of quite a rare edition of Iamblicus' Life of Pythagoras. (imo) there's overwhelming evidence that he was a specific individual and the most likely 'story' behind the irrationality of root 2 is that the person was either killed (or at least exiled) because he broke the code of silence (they accepted and started using irrational numbers awfully quickly afterwards for something that was meant to be quite so unholy)

Again reiterating there's barely any evidence to work with - but that I can accept as true, that he was a descendant of Apollo - possibly less likely

Science and religion are easily divisible. One is falsifiable.   The other is just false.

God = Numbers = God

roughly speaking. They had some really weird shit as well, but I don't mind that central concept

[kinboshi]

The Pythag debate is a fun one:

http://old.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?start=0&t=6300

That is if he existed at all.

hmmmm - that's possibly not the most well informed of debates, with the historical data at least.

I've read 'quite a lot' on the subject, including my own copy of quite a rare edition of Iamblicus' Life of Pythagoras. (imo) there's overwhelming evidence that he was a specific individual and the most likely 'story' behind the irrationality of root 2 is that the person was either killed (or at least exiled) because he broke the code of silence (they accepted and started using irrational numbers awfully quickly afterwards for something that was meant to be quite so unholy)

Again reiterating there's barely any evidence to work with - but that I can accept as true, that he was a descendant of Apollo - possibly less likely

Science and religion are easily divisible. One is falsifiable.   The other is just false.

God = Numbers = God

roughly speaking. They had some really weird shit as well, but I don't mind that central concept

Nah, that's just playing with words.

[Tal]

That is interesting. Thanks, Jon.

[Mohican]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]


My argument would be for one single piece of evidence to show that god exists, let this piece of evidence be tested, and if it is shown to be irrefutably correct, then I will believe.

I disagree that science is as 'fantastic' as religious ideas, especially when fantastic is defined as "remote from reality".  Science is about being able to test hypothesis and correct them as new evidence is found.  It's about testing held 'truths', in fact science is about disproving held truths.  Religion is quite the opposite.  It's about NOT trying to disprove fantastic beliefs based on nothing but faith.

As for the infinite number of universes, I've not heard an argument for it that makes sense to me - but that's probably because of my misunderstanding of the idea.

That Epicurus quote is a favourite of mine. May even end up as a tattoo.

[Tal]

Christian philosophy has addressed it, but it isn't a debate worth having.

My whole point is that there can exist two sets of beliefs.

[outragous76]

i know several intellectuals who believe in god, yet not one rational answer between them about his existence

infact almost every "reasoned response" I have ever listened to is so cringeworthy it makes me shudder

[Mohican]

Christian philosophy has addressed it, but it isn't a debate worth having.

My whole point is that there can exist two sets of beliefs.

Would you say that science is a 'belief'?

[theprawnidentity]

Christian philosophy has addressed it, but it isn't a debate worth having.

My whole point is that there can exist two sets of beliefs.

Would you say that science is a 'belief'?

"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.” - Tim Minchin.

Perhaps not the most informed or reliable source on the science vs religeon debate, but it works for me.