MEGA SAT cheating...

[jgcblack]

Nice idea Skippy, never heard of that before - LIKE.

Hi Guys

From tonight we are banning the chat nearing the bubble this should eliminate players trying to discuss the bubble.

I have also sent off the previous nights chats to be reviewed by the fraud and security team and if we find any players to have colluded we will take appropriate action.

If you have any concerns with particular players please email them to support@dusktilldawnpoker.com and they will be able to send off immediately.

Cheers Nicola

Thanks Nicola, knew you'd be onto it..

My guess and suggestion is that the people foolish enough to collude in the chatbox we can all see are obviously going to still do something to try and continue after the chat has been disabled.  But then we're all down to relying on HH's and like Lil'D says, it should be relatively easy to question someone who has consistently made folds/ plays that are suspicious/ out of line.

[pokerfan]

Has anyone mentioned that this format of satellites is always going to be a big target for collusion? That's why Stars ditched their double-or-nothings- a few mates would all join the  same one and work as a team which gave them a huge advantage. If you've got a big stack near the bubble, you can decide who you call and try and knock out and who you can just ignore (your mates), at very little cost to yourself.

Here is another format for satellites that solve this problem (it's not my idea, I've seen it on 2+2 somewhere). I know you can't do it on iPoker without reprogramming, which isn't going to happen, but DTD could do it live without any problems, especially since they've got a great clock/ tournament management software.
 
Play until reg closes/ rebuys end and tot up a) how many total chips are in play and b) how many seats there are.  Divide the number of chips in play by the number of seats. Let's say there is a million chips in play, and 10 seats.  So that gives us 100,000 chips (1 million / 10) for a seat.

Tournament plays as normal. Once a player accumulates  100,000 chips, they've won a seat. Their chips are removed from play* and they go to the cash desk and get their prize. The tournament continues, removing players as they get knocked out (down to 0 chips) or make it to 100,000 chips, in which case they'll get a seat. Eventually there will be two players left playing heads-up for the 10th and final seat.

This format doesn't suffer from collusion, or at least no more than ordinary tournament poker. It also cuts down on dealing costs, makes the satellite quicker for the same structure, and doesn't require special satellite strategy on the part of the players (this could be a disadvantage if you are a player who has mastered satellite strategy).

* There are various alternatives for what to do if a player wins a pot that takes them over 100,000 chips. You can either take all their chips out- in which case the total number of chips in play won't make it possible for everyone to get to 100,000. You can chuck the excess chips over 100,000 back into the pots at the tables somehow. Or you can award one seat, let the player keep his surplus chips over 100,000, and let him try to win 2 seats in the same satellite.

Like.

[smurf]

well...down to 2 tables 12 players left 11 get a seat in tonights sat.

wont mention names and all the other stuff that was said on the other table but two lines were


is colluding allowed?

yes

...unreal


(yes I still got a seat in case anyone asks)

[Devil Whale]

just return from working away for a few days and have just seen this section for cheating. I would like to make it known that i was the player that folded in the hand when all i needed to do was call 2k when i was in the big blind for 10k, i would like to point out what happen, while playing the sat i was called away from the lab-top and when i return the clock was counting down and i miss clicked the fold button. at the time i could not believe what was being said in the chat boxes and i could not be bothered to reply because it was all petty crap.
The only reason i am posting about this is to make it clear that i don't know the player that won the pot and that i was not cheating.
I have played poker for a few years and at all levels of the game and of cause it was a call all day long and any good players would have know this and to me it was so obvious  it must have been a miss click. which i am sure most player have done while playing online.
It is quite sad that the first reaction was for a few players to say that we where cheating, (they must always play perfect poker !) during the past few years i have never seen any cheating while playing live and it must be said that sats can play very different to standard games close to the bubble but not to call 2k to win a 30k pot what!
If cheating is going on during these sats i fully back any action to stop but i also feel that some of the players that use the chat boxes need to have a look at what they post.
At this level of sat you are going to have a great mix of player levels and even the most experienced players can make mistakes. So to say people are cheating because one hand plays wrong is going to far.

[aaron1867]

Players that are busted from tourneys should also be banned from using the chatbox also.

[relaedgc]

You can't prevent cheating in exactly the same way that you can't prevent crime. You simply have to police it to deter it and punish it to discourage it from happening again.

Unfortunately, you can't rely on the players (as a whole) to put the integrity of the game before their own personal/financial benefit. The only thing that can be done to prevent this in future is to remove the chat box (which has been done).

If there's something you see that concerns you, by all means report the issue to the host and they will investigate. Ultimately, though, they'll look for patterns and trends. If it happens as an isolated incident, it is unlikely that it will be picked up on.

That having been said, I do feel that because of the way a satellite works it is very common for people to play entirely different. I've heard people say that with a huge chip lead, they'd fold aces irrespective of the amount of call. Because you almost discourage people from playing, especially with chips.

Much like crime, that's why the Justice system is aimed at reformation as opposed to outright vengeance. It believes, as I do with cheating in poker, that education and learning eliminates far more cheating than vindication does.

[scotty77]

Has anyone mentioned that this format of satellites is always going to be a big target for collusion? That's why Stars ditched their double-or-nothings- a few mates would all join the  same one and work as a team which gave them a huge advantage. If you've got a big stack near the bubble, you can decide who you call and try and knock out and who you can just ignore (your mates), at very little cost to yourself.

Here is another format for satellites that solve this problem (it's not my idea, I've seen it on 2+2 somewhere). I know you can't do it on iPoker without reprogramming, which isn't going to happen, but DTD could do it live without any problems, especially since they've got a great clock/ tournament management software.
 
Play until reg closes/ rebuys end and tot up a) how many total chips are in play and b) how many seats there are.  Divide the number of chips in play by the number of seats. Let's say there is a million chips in play, and 10 seats.  So that gives us 100,000 chips (1 million / 10) for a seat.

Tournament plays as normal. Once a player accumulates  100,000 chips, they've won a seat. Their chips are removed from play* and they go to the cash desk and get their prize. The tournament continues, removing players as they get knocked out (down to 0 chips) or make it to 100,000 chips, in which case they'll get a seat. Eventually there will be two players left playing heads-up for the 10th and final seat.

This format doesn't suffer from collusion, or at least no more than ordinary tournament poker. It also cuts down on dealing costs, makes the satellite quicker for the same structure, and doesn't require special satellite strategy on the part of the players (this could be a disadvantage if you are a player who has mastered satellite strategy).

* There are various alternatives for what to do if a player wins a pot that takes them over 100,000 chips. You can either take all their chips out- in which case the total number of chips in play won't make it possible for everyone to get to 100,000. You can chuck the excess chips over 100,000 back into the pots at the tables somehow. Or you can award one seat, let the player keep his surplus chips over 100,000, and let him try to win 2 seats in the same satellite.

I've never heard of this before but sounds a really interesting format.  Would love to see something like this in place at DTD for live sats

[relaedgc]

I can understand the virtues of that format, and I think it's very interesting.

I'd like to see it actually used before considering it, though. I worry that in events that are generally crapshoots as is, the removal of chips out of it in a steady process would make that worse.

It's certainly an interesting option, of course.

[david3103]

The chat was still live right to the end tonight,
With 51 left I was 50th and was watching the other table and it seemed they were all time bank folding and then checking down to protect 'their' shortstack. We both made it
Nothing to get too excited about although maybe going hand for hand would make sense along with the chat being off

[kinboshi]

The chat was still live right to the end tonight,
With 51 left I was 50th and was watching the other table and it seemed they were all time bank folding and then checking down to protect 'their' shortstack. We both made it
Nothing to get too excited about although maybe going hand for hand would make sense along with the chat being off

Yeah, thought the chat was being switched off 10 from the bubble in the sats from now on?  Didn't see any cheating tonight though, but better to put things in place to prevent it from happening as much as possible.

[ruud]

The chat was still live right to the end tonight,
With 51 left I was 50th and was watching the other table and it seemed they were all time bank folding and then checking down to protect 'their' shortstack. We both made it
Nothing to get too excited about although maybe going hand for hand would make sense along with the chat being off

Yeah, thought the chat was being switched off 10 from the bubble in the sats from now on?  Didn't see any cheating tonight though, but better to put things in place to prevent it from happening as much as possible.

+1 to all of this

[SuuPRlim]

review the hand historys, if cheating went on it's so easy to spot, fk it I'd even volunteer to review them if DTD sent me the HH's for the last 5 sats with the hands 5 places off the bubble onwards.

Chat Logs don't mean anything and prove nothing all the chat does is aggravate the people who believe cheating is going on. Anyone can say w/e they like if it's inoffensive and there is nothing anyone can do about that,

In satellites its incredibly hard to "Prove" cheating as you obv know. People can make incorrect mathematical decisions and fold for a variety of reasons, such as not needing to call because its a satellite etc, they could even say its in their interests to fold to player A getting 7/1 with AK because he is a weak player and calling against player B with AK getting 9/4 because he is stronger given its a satellite and it affects the players longterm equity in the main event. So whilst its obvious to everyone with a brain who is cheating and who is looking at hand histories, anyone with a brain can make a number of arguments that basically allow them to do what they want in satellites and its very hard to argue against

This.

Banning the chat would reduce things though.

Not enough, still going to go on. The chat shows people don't understand that it is wrong, which is a key issue. When players are aware it can be clamped down on a lot harder. But if people want to cheat it is very hard to stop them.

Nobody has said that banning chat will solve the problem. Obviously it is still going to go on. It will reduce it though.

Yh 1 hand history proves nothing, one person could misclick, have a brainfreeze, just not quite grasp satelite strategy etc but look for patterns, when "out of place" stuff happens frequently with the same people it's pretty damn obvious. With a reg player pool like DTD's it would be pretty simple IMO to spot with the HH's for 5-10 sats.

[Doobs]

The chat was still live right to the end tonight,
With 51 left I was 50th and was watching the other table and it seemed they were all time bank folding and then checking down to protect 'their' shortstack. We both made it
Nothing to get too excited about although maybe going hand for hand would make sense along with the chat being off

I made it through but opened up another table (with the shortest stack with 50 odd to go) and not only were they time bank folding and telling everybody else to do so, the big stacks were openly calling pre so that they could get some time bank checks in.  This was discussed in the chat window.

 It certainly wasn't widespread, my table and another with a shortie on seemed to play the game fairly.

I should add it isn't the time bank folding that is the problem, time banking close to the bubble is solid sat strategy. It is agreeing to it and telling others to do so in the chat that is the problem.  And the chatlogs from that table will be pretty damning.

[Magic817]

The chat was still live right to the end tonight,
With 51 left I was 50th and was watching the other table and it seemed they were all time bank folding and then checking down to protect 'their' shortstack. We both made it
Nothing to get too excited about although maybe going hand for hand would make sense along with the chat being off

I made it through but opened up another table (with the shortest stack with 50 odd to go) and not only were they time bank folding and telling everybody else to do so, the big stacks were openly calling pre so that they could get some time bank checks in.  This was discussed in the chat window.

 It certainly wasn't widespread, my table and another with a shortie on seemed to play the game fairly.

I should add it isn't the time bank folding that is the problem, time banking close to the bubble is solid sat strategy. It is agreeing to it and telling others to do so in the chat that is the problem.  And the chatlogs from that table will be pretty damning.

I also made it through, my table was fine in terms of chat. I didn't pay a load of attention to how people played as I had a few tables going but wasn't aware of anything funny going on. As others have said, if it has been happening and people are stupid enough to have said things in the chatbox then something needs to be done (which I am sure DtD will do/are already doing).

[The Camel]

You can't prevent cheating in exactly the same way that you can't prevent crime. You simply have to police it to deter it and punish it to discourage it from happening again.

Unfortunately, you can't rely on the players (as a whole) to put the integrity of the game before their own personal/financial benefit. The only thing that can be done to prevent this in future is to remove the chat box (which has been done).

If there's something you see that concerns you, by all means report the issue to the host and they will investigate. Ultimately, though, they'll look for patterns and trends. If it happens as an isolated incident, it is unlikely that it will be picked up on.

That having been said, I do feel that because of the way a satellite works it is very common for people to play entirely different. I've heard people say that with a huge chip lead, they'd fold aces irrespective of the amount of call. Because you almost discourage people from playing, especially with chips.

Much like crime, that's why the Justice system is aimed at reformation as opposed to outright vengeance. It believes, as I do with cheating in poker, that education and learning eliminates far more cheating than vindication does.

If I had 20bbs and there is 1 get knocked out to get a seat with 2 < 3bbs stacks, I would absolutely fold aces.

It's a no brainer.