Thatcher dead?

[MANTIS01]

Did you just justify Maggie bringing in Poll Tax because Henry the VIII did it in 1520? You cannot be serious. This is neglected on the Poll Tax wikipedia page and as an aside, you can pretty much justify what you want using well someone else did it before. I was very close to bringing up Hitler but we all know that kills debates rather than start it. I think you will have a hard time supporting Maggie in regards to Poll Tax, why not bring up deregulation or the sale of council houses as a positive?

We do not vote for policies, we vote for Parties. I may disagree with Poll Tax, but support deregulation, because the party elected is by a majority doesn't mean the majority of people support that policy. I couldn't vote for Labour in the 2002 and may not have, but I would be extremely upset if you decided that that meant I voted in favour for the Iraq War.

edit: Obviously Wiki isn't the best source ever, but it does bring up three incidents of Poll Tax being brought in and ignores Henry the 8th.

I didn't justify poll tax. I said it wasn't her original concept. Which people seem to auto accept it is. Prob because these days people run to wikipedia for their knowledge. It has been a proposed solution to the problem of raising revenue to pay for services for hundreds of years. Personally I don't think it's a very good solution tho.

We don't vote for policies but every MP in the land has the opportunity to debate and vote for individual policies on our behalf.

I will bring up Hitler as I would disagree with Camel and say he is prob the most hated political figure in modern history. I would also put thousands of world leaders and even Nick Griffin ahead of her but people seem blinded and fascinated by hate for her. Like I said politics is a funny old game.

[bobby1]

As an aside, did you know Hitler was voted Man of the year by Time magazine in 1938?

In hindsight that was some pick.

[Jon MW]

Margaret Thatcher was a British hero. I think she embodied the determination and spirit great British leaders through history have displayed and she was respected as a great leader by major powers throughout the world. She protected British interests with undeniable zeal and enhanced our international reputation no end. I remember watching her in the commons bashing up the opposition time and again. I can only imagine how many people, particularly women, she must have inspired and empowered along the way. Her rise to power from humble roots in a male-dominated environment is a great British success story and I salute her life on this sad day.

Obviously all her policies were not universally acclaimed but then again I wonder which world leader has enjoyed such universal acclaim? We live in a democratic country and any policy must be voted in by a majority. The fact that her policies are deemed as personal to her only show what an incredible influential figurehead she was. As far as I can remember she didn’t urge Britain to attack a foreign country in an illegal war with false evidence like Blair did. I figure dropping bombs on innocent people is a more outrageous policy than creating some “hardship”. Yet one is a millionaire peace envoy and the other is the wicked witch of the west. Politics is a funny old game.

Now for anybody talking about historical figures in British history I enjoy studying British history myself. Do people know that....

King Henry VIII introduced the poll tax to Britain in 1520.

The Wars of the Roses circa 1455-1485 was a relentless bloody civil war fuelled by the social & economic divide between the North and the South.

These two things came to mind because the greatly vilified Thatcher is deemed responsible for Britain’s problems that began at the dawn of time. The poll tax was never her idea, it’s been implemented throughout history and the divide between North and South has been a constant since medieval times. I don’t greatly care if people ignore all the positives and fist-pump her death because it is much more a reflection of their character than hers.

“Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides”

"To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say. You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

"I want my money back!"

RIP Iron Lady

One sided post, Mantis

fyp

To ignore the absolute hell she caused so many communities, and to ignore that she drove a wedge between the North and the South of the country and (largely) created a country wholly reliant on one city is to miss an entire side of the argument, and yet and yet and yet.

You'll never understand the vitriol pouring out today (not that I necessarily agree with it, particularly the 'bandwaggoned' part) without understanding those things. You're entitled to think that she did great things, just as others (like me) who saw her rip apart and mortgage the futures of several communities in the UK are entitled to think that in the face of all that destruction, her achievements are rather 'meh'.

The point is that you have to see the whole picture, the writing of one sided hagiographies is a dangerous game.

For my part, I'm finding it difficult to have much emotion about the topic in general -- I'm aware that Thatcher destroyed my community, and I'm aware that some of the things she did made it possible for lots of other people money, but those people were never the same people whose communities she destroyed. I'm not going to grave dance, and ding dong the witch is dead is a bit strong, but I won't shed a tear tonight.

But I am concerned that people are using the 'don't speak ill of the dead' argument too frequently and stopping sensible discourse.

I think it was very well written by Mantis - I think part of the point was that Thatcher didn't create the North/South divide - the North has been doing much worse than the South for 100's and 100's of years. For a few generations Northern manufacturing and coal mining was subsidised by forced sales to Imperial possessions followed by central subsidies. Thatcher ended that particular period - but in the greater scheme of things she just corrected the anomaly rather than creating the imbalance.

And the poll tax would never have been considered if the rates hadn't been so unpopular - something which hardly anybody seems to comment on. It was a bad idea and I think an indication that there should be a 10 year cap on leadership, but the rates were unpopular - poll tax was worse - and council tax isn't exactly loved; it might just be a difficult problem to get right.


I think respect for the dead is over rated, but as others have suggested criticising somebodies flaws and faults is significantly different to celebrating their death.

[pleno1]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=610887372259303&set=vb.100000141362344&type=2&theater

[Nakor]

Margaret Thatcher was a British hero. I think she embodied the determination and spirit great British leaders through history have displayed and she was respected as a great leader by major powers throughout the world. She protected British interests with undeniable zeal and enhanced our international reputation no end. I remember watching her in the commons bashing up the opposition time and again. I can only imagine how many people, particularly women, she must have inspired and empowered along the way. Her rise to power from humble roots in a male-dominated environment is a great British success story and I salute her life on this sad day.

Obviously all her policies were not universally acclaimed but then again I wonder which world leader has enjoyed such universal acclaim? We live in a democratic country and any policy must be voted in by a majority. The fact that her policies are deemed as personal to her only show what an incredible influential figurehead she was. As far as I can remember she didn’t urge Britain to attack a foreign country in an illegal war with false evidence like Blair did. I figure dropping bombs on innocent people is a more outrageous policy than creating some “hardship”. Yet one is a millionaire peace envoy and the other is the wicked witch of the west. Politics is a funny old game.

Now for anybody talking about historical figures in British history I enjoy studying British history myself. Do people know that....

King Henry VIII introduced the poll tax to Britain in 1520.

The Wars of the Roses circa 1455-1485 was a relentless bloody civil war fuelled by the social & economic divide between the North and the South.

These two things came to mind because the greatly vilified Thatcher is deemed responsible for Britain’s problems that began at the dawn of time. The poll tax was never her idea, it’s been implemented throughout history and the divide between North and South has been a constant since medieval times. I don’t greatly care if people ignore all the positives and fist-pump her death because it is much more a reflection of their character than hers.

“Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides”

"To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say. You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

"I want my money back!"

RIP Iron Lady

Universal acclaim?

There hasn't been a more hated political figure in modern history.

Most hated?  I am sure around Canary Warf or the West End there is not too much hate being shown today.  Isn’t it subjective?
I am sure if you toured the retirement homes of Johannesburg you would find that even Mandela was hated in places, seems a big statement considering she shared the earth with Nixon, Arafat or even Limbaugh and sadly many others far more deserving of your title.
Bitch did steal my Milk though.

[MANTIS01]

Margaret Thatcher was a British hero. I think she embodied the determination and spirit great British leaders through history have displayed and she was respected as a great leader by major powers throughout the world. She protected British interests with undeniable zeal and enhanced our international reputation no end. I remember watching her in the commons bashing up the opposition time and again. I can only imagine how many people, particularly women, she must have inspired and empowered along the way. Her rise to power from humble roots in a male-dominated environment is a great British success story and I salute her life on this sad day.

Obviously all her policies were not universally acclaimed but then again I wonder which world leader has enjoyed such universal acclaim? We live in a democratic country and any policy must be voted in by a majority. The fact that her policies are deemed as personal to her only show what an incredible influential figurehead she was. As far as I can remember she didn’t urge Britain to attack a foreign country in an illegal war with false evidence like Blair did. I figure dropping bombs on innocent people is a more outrageous policy than creating some “hardship”. Yet one is a millionaire peace envoy and the other is the wicked witch of the west. Politics is a funny old game.

Now for anybody talking about historical figures in British history I enjoy studying British history myself. Do people know that....

King Henry VIII introduced the poll tax to Britain in 1520.

The Wars of the Roses circa 1455-1485 was a relentless bloody civil war fuelled by the social & economic divide between the North and the South.

These two things came to mind because the greatly vilified Thatcher is deemed responsible for Britain’s problems that began at the dawn of time. The poll tax was never her idea, it’s been implemented throughout history and the divide between North and South has been a constant since medieval times. I don’t greatly care if people ignore all the positives and fist-pump her death because it is much more a reflection of their character than hers.

“Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides”

"To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say. You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

"I want my money back!"

RIP Iron Lady

One sided post, Mantis

fyp

To ignore the absolute hell she caused so many communities, and to ignore that she drove a wedge between the North and the South of the country and (largely) created a country wholly reliant on one city is to miss an entire side of the argument, and yet and yet and yet.

You'll never understand the vitriol pouring out today (not that I necessarily agree with it, particularly the 'bandwaggoned' part) without understanding those things. You're entitled to think that she did great things, just as others (like me) who saw her rip apart and mortgage the futures of several communities in the UK are entitled to think that in the face of all that destruction, her achievements are rather 'meh'.

The point is that you have to see the whole picture, the writing of one sided hagiographies is a dangerous game.

For my part, I'm finding it difficult to have much emotion about the topic in general -- I'm aware that Thatcher destroyed my community, and I'm aware that some of the things she did made it possible for lots of other people money, but those people were never the same people whose communities she destroyed. I'm not going to grave dance, and ding dong the witch is dead is a bit strong, but I won't shed a tear tonight.

But I am concerned that people are using the 'don't speak ill of the dead' argument too frequently and stopping sensible discourse.

I agree the infrastructure of "some communities" were destroyed on her watch but then again the infrastructure of every community has been destroyed on the last government's watch.

Kinda feel the bombing of Iraq literally destroyed "some communities" as well.

Personally feel it's more appropriate to focus on the positives in an obituary so sorry for not demonstrating my appreciation of the "whole story".

[TommyD]

Margaret Thatcher was a British hero. I think she embodied the determination and spirit great British leaders through history have displayed and she was respected as a great leader by major powers throughout the world. She protected British interests with undeniable zeal and enhanced our international reputation no end. I remember watching her in the commons bashing up the opposition time and again. I can only imagine how many people, particularly women, she must have inspired and empowered along the way. Her rise to power from humble roots in a male-dominated environment is a great British success story and I salute her life on this sad day.

Obviously all her policies were not universally acclaimed but then again I wonder which world leader has enjoyed such universal acclaim? We live in a democratic country and any policy must be voted in by a majority. The fact that her policies are deemed as personal to her only show what an incredible influential figurehead she was. As far as I can remember she didn’t urge Britain to attack a foreign country in an illegal war with false evidence like Blair did. I figure dropping bombs on innocent people is a more outrageous policy than creating some “hardship”. Yet one is a millionaire peace envoy and the other is the wicked witch of the west. Politics is a funny old game.

Now for anybody talking about historical figures in British history I enjoy studying British history myself. Do people know that....

King Henry VIII introduced the poll tax to Britain in 1520.

The Wars of the Roses circa 1455-1485 was a relentless bloody civil war fuelled by the social & economic divide between the North and the South.

These two things came to mind because the greatly vilified Thatcher is deemed responsible for Britain’s problems that began at the dawn of time. The poll tax was never her idea, it’s been implemented throughout history and the divide between North and South has been a constant since medieval times. I don’t greatly care if people ignore all the positives and fist-pump her death because it is much more a reflection of their character than hers.

“Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides”

"To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say. You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

"I want my money back!"

RIP Iron Lady

Universal acclaim?

There hasn't been a more hated political figure in modern history.

I take it you mean British political figure Keith.  Otherwise I have to say Pol Pot is probably hated somewhat more.

[AndrewT]

As an aside, did you know Hitler was voted Man of the year by Time magazine in 1938?

In hindsight that was some pick.

Not really - it was quite right.

The selection wasn't a 'best person' award, it was a 'person who had most impact upon the world' thing and, undoubtedly, in 1938 that was Hitler. Stalin and Ayatollah Khomeini also got it in subsequent years.

The system fell apart in 2001 when Time realised that putting Osama Bin Laden on the cover would not go down well, so they chickened out and put Rudy Giuliani instead.

[Jon MW]

Margaret Thatcher was a British hero. I think she embodied the determination and spirit great British leaders through history have displayed and she was respected as a great leader by major powers throughout the world. She protected British interests with undeniable zeal and enhanced our international reputation no end. I remember watching her in the commons bashing up the opposition time and again. I can only imagine how many people, particularly women, she must have inspired and empowered along the way. Her rise to power from humble roots in a male-dominated environment is a great British success story and I salute her life on this sad day.

Obviously all her policies were not universally acclaimed but then again I wonder which world leader has enjoyed such universal acclaim? We live in a democratic country and any policy must be voted in by a majority. The fact that her policies are deemed as personal to her only show what an incredible influential figurehead she was. As far as I can remember she didn’t urge Britain to attack a foreign country in an illegal war with false evidence like Blair did. I figure dropping bombs on innocent people is a more outrageous policy than creating some “hardship”. Yet one is a millionaire peace envoy and the other is the wicked witch of the west. Politics is a funny old game.

Now for anybody talking about historical figures in British history I enjoy studying British history myself. Do people know that....

King Henry VIII introduced the poll tax to Britain in 1520.

The Wars of the Roses circa 1455-1485 was a relentless bloody civil war fuelled by the social & economic divide between the North and the South.

These two things came to mind because the greatly vilified Thatcher is deemed responsible for Britain’s problems that began at the dawn of time. The poll tax was never her idea, it’s been implemented throughout history and the divide between North and South has been a constant since medieval times. I don’t greatly care if people ignore all the positives and fist-pump her death because it is much more a reflection of their character than hers.

“Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides”

"To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say. You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

"I want my money back!"

RIP Iron Lady

Universal acclaim?

There hasn't been a more hated political figure in modern history.

I take it you mean British political figure Keith.  Otherwise I have to say Pol Pot is probably hated somewhat more.

I think Oliver Cromwell would probably beat her for British political figures as well

maybe Modern British political figures ....



.... although not many people were that keen on Oswald Mosley either come to think of it

[doubleup]

I didn't justify poll tax. I said it wasn't her original concept.

Replacing a property tax that broadly linked wealth to the amount charged with a flat rate tax that took no account of an individual's income AND linking the collection of that tax to the electoral role was most fucking definitely Thatcher's idea.

[TommyD]

Not speaking ill of the dead is not avoiding sensible debate on important matters of history.  I'm just finding the people who seem to have been primed for action at the very moment they heard this news to either praise her to the heavens or reveal in her death completely distasteful.

I'm willing to discuss anything of her political history you want, the way she beat all odds in her own party to lead it, how the country was screwed when she got there, how much we needed a PM like that, how she went far too far, how the Unions did have too much power, how the Unions were needed and vital and were unfairly destroyed, how a combination of Thatcher and corrupt Union leaders directly lead to families falling to bits and lives destroyed, how she forged alliances with the US and Russia, how she alienated us with Europe, the positive elements of competition which made the UK a financial powerhouse, how that capitalism lead to the inequalities in today's society and the financial crash and how Labout had 13 years to do something about Thatcherisum and didn't do a damn thing.  Pick any bit you want, all the above and a whole heap more.

On reflection, if nothing else, it was certainly a life to be remembered.

[rfgqqabc]

Did you just justify Maggie bringing in Poll Tax because Henry the VIII did it in 1520? You cannot be serious. This is neglected on the Poll Tax wikipedia page and as an aside, you can pretty much justify what you want using well someone else did it before. I was very close to bringing up Hitler but we all know that kills debates rather than start it. I think you will have a hard time supporting Maggie in regards to Poll Tax, why not bring up deregulation or the sale of council houses as a positive?

We do not vote for policies, we vote for Parties. I may disagree with Poll Tax, but support deregulation, because the party elected is by a majority doesn't mean the majority of people support that policy. I couldn't vote for Labour in the 2002 and may not have, but I would be extremely upset if you decided that that meant I voted in favour for the Iraq War.

edit: Obviously Wiki isn't the best source ever, but it does bring up three incidents of Poll Tax being brought in and ignores Henry the 8th.

I didn't justify poll tax. I said it wasn't her original concept. Which people seem to auto accept it is. Prob because these days people run to wikipedia for their knowledge. It has been a proposed solution to the problem of raising revenue to pay for services for hundreds of years. Personally I don't think it's a very good solution tho.

We don't vote for policies but every MP in the land has the opportunity to debate and vote for individual policies on our behalf.

I will bring up Hitler as I would disagree with Camel and say he is prob the most hated political figure in modern history. I would also put thousands of world leaders and even Nick Griffin ahead of her but people seem blinded and fascinated by hate for her. Like I said politics is a funny old game.

Sorry Mantis, I didn't have time to run to the British Library. I like to see actual referenced information instead of spouting nonsense. Wikipedia bashing is so lol. The work is referenced you know? And any unclear information has [citation needed] next to it.

Did you agree with me that Poll Tax wasn't voted in for by the majority? The point about MPs debating/voting is true, but how many can/will oppose their party when it comes to vote time. I'm hoping you have time to find a source and quote it. It takes hours in the Library. If only there was some sort of online encyclopedia that could be used for such a thing?

Completely agree with regards to her being most hated. Very polarising however. Good post from TommyD regarding actual history imo, how i was taught that period of history.

[Doobs]

Margaret Thatcher was a British hero. I think she embodied the determination and spirit great British leaders through history have displayed and she was respected as a great leader by major powers throughout the world. She protected British interests with undeniable zeal and enhanced our international reputation no end. I remember watching her in the commons bashing up the opposition time and again. I can only imagine how many people, particularly women, she must have inspired and empowered along the way. Her rise to power from humble roots in a male-dominated environment is a great British success story and I salute her life on this sad day.

Obviously all her policies were not universally acclaimed but then again I wonder which world leader has enjoyed such universal acclaim? We live in a democratic country and any policy must be voted in by a majority. The fact that her policies are deemed as personal to her only show what an incredible influential figurehead she was. As far as I can remember she didn’t urge Britain to attack a foreign country in an illegal war with false evidence like Blair did. I figure dropping bombs on innocent people is a more outrageous policy than creating some “hardship”. Yet one is a millionaire peace envoy and the other is the wicked witch of the west. Politics is a funny old game.

Now for anybody talking about historical figures in British history I enjoy studying British history myself. Do people know that....

King Henry VIII introduced the poll tax to Britain in 1520.

The Wars of the Roses circa 1455-1485 was a relentless bloody civil war fuelled by the social & economic divide between the North and the South.

These two things came to mind because the greatly vilified Thatcher is deemed responsible for Britain’s problems that began at the dawn of time. The poll tax was never her idea, it’s been implemented throughout history and the divide between North and South has been a constant since medieval times. I don’t greatly care if people ignore all the positives and fist-pump her death because it is much more a reflection of their character than hers.

“Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides”

"To those waiting with bated breath for that favourite media catchphrase, the U-turn, I have only one thing to say. You turn if you want to. The lady's not for turning."

"I want my money back!"

RIP Iron Lady

One sided post, Mantis

fyp

To ignore the absolute hell she caused so many communities, and to ignore that she drove a wedge between the North and the South of the country and (largely) created a country wholly reliant on one city is to miss an entire side of the argument, and yet and yet and yet.

You'll never understand the vitriol pouring out today (not that I necessarily agree with it, particularly the 'bandwaggoned' part) without understanding those things. You're entitled to think that she did great things, just as others (like me) who saw her rip apart and mortgage the futures of several communities in the UK are entitled to think that in the face of all that destruction, her achievements are rather 'meh'.

The point is that you have to see the whole picture, the writing of one sided hagiographies is a dangerous game.

For my part, I'm finding it difficult to have much emotion about the topic in general -- I'm aware that Thatcher destroyed my community, and I'm aware that some of the things she did made it possible for lots of other people money, but those people were never the same people whose communities she destroyed. I'm not going to grave dance, and ding dong the witch is dead is a bit strong, but I won't shed a tear tonight.

But I am concerned that people are using the 'don't speak ill of the dead' argument too frequently and stopping sensible discourse.

I agree the infrastructure of "some communities" were destroyed on her watch but then again the infrastructure of every community has been destroyed on the last government's watch.

ORLY?

My kid's school is less than 10 years old, as are most of the buildings in the hospital over the road.  

The problem with the last Government was that they did too much and not too little.

[Ironside]

#nowthatchersdead had many cher fans in tears

[bobby1]

Not speaking ill of the dead is not avoiding sensible debate on important matters of history.  I'm just finding the people who seem to have been primed for action at the very moment they heard this news to either praise her to the heavens or reveal in her death completely distasteful.

I'm willing to discuss anything of her political history you want, the way she beat all odds in her own party to lead it, how the country was screwed when she got there, how much we needed a PM like that, how she went far too far, how the Unions did have too much power, how the Unions were needed and vital and were unfairly destroyed, how a combination of Thatcher and corrupt Union leaders directly lead to families falling to bits and lives destroyed, how she forged alliances with the US and Russia, how she alienated us with Europe, the positive elements of competition which made the UK a financial powerhouse, how that capitalism lead to the inequalities in today's society and the financial crash and how Labout had 13 years to do something about Thatcherisum and didn't do a damn thing.  Pick any bit you want, all the above and a whole heap more.

On reflection, if nothing else, it was certainly a life to be remembered.

good post mate.

Certainly beats the ding dong the witch is dead and this ladies now for burning stuff.