Thatcher dead?

[kinboshi]

Definitely pro Thatcher here and proud of it. My life, my family and those around me certainly benefitted from having a PM with balls. T

Sums it up really, me me me.

Yes it may be a 'me, me, me' centric view but so what. First and foremost my family and their welfare is my priority and secondly everyone else. It's my view and I'll stand by it. I am now able to support my family and contribute to society by means of my tax contributions and charitable donations all largely down to Maggie.

The Thatcher years made me what I am today and I'm proud of that. It taught me that I should not expect things on a plate and that I should earn what I want out of life whether that's working for myself or for somebody else.

My parents and school teachers taught me that.

tbf, they didn't do enough of a job on you or you'd be in a job that had you making a tax contribution to society

He does contribute to society when he buys anything from a shop, fills his car up with petrol, pays his council tax, NI contributions, etc.

[Jon MW]

she didn't create a War to be popular.

you what?

The reaction to the Argentine invasion of the Falklands was one of her towering achievements.

Not sure how she created the situation!

She was one of the most unpopular PMs ever until the Falklands War. The whole thing was about winning the 1983 election

The most massive flaw with this argument is that most of the advice she was given was that we would fail.

The most likely scenario was that we'd lose a lot of lives, not have the Falklands under our control and be forced in to talks with the most likely outcome being some form of shared sovereignty (this outcome being the most likely outcome that would happen if we'd done nothing)

In that context - does it sound more like an election winning strategy - or a matter of principle? (and self belief/belief in the army)

[TightEnd]

Keith

Thatcher was always a hugely divisive figure as she had to change the country after the mess of the 1970s

This came at great social cost. The alternative was it happened over two decades not 5-6 years, and would have been worse for many more people

However to claim the Falklands was about winning the election is one of the great myths perpetuated by lazy thinkers.

She rang up the Junta and said "look I am in trouble, invade and I will be a war leader?" come on now, the Argentines invaded. She was meant to do nothing and let them go into Argentine sovereignty?

Of course not

Of course not, but in no way was a military response justified or justifiable.

The Argentinians would have left without a huge loss of life.

And the Tories would have lost the 1983 election.

No..justified imo

Yes. Our forces lost 250 lives, Argentines 700.

Yes probably

and we'll have seen Prime Minister Kinnock.....

Michael Foot surely?

correct, you are right.


The 1970s: Huge union power, three day weeks, no power/electricty at times, rampant inflation, lots of industries protected by state intervention

In changing all of that she had a huge impact on everyone

At the end of all that Labour was unelectable, and shortly afterwards swung to the left with Foot, and the likes of Scargill/Red Robbo/Hatton just as divisive as Thatcher was

In changing the country she undoubtedly did so far less humanely than she could have done, both in tone "the enemy within", speed of change and actual policy

If you were in the eye of that, as many have said on here and elsewhere, a terrible time.

However I maintain and I think many Historians and economists concur that the sort of change made was economically necessary and there was no easy way to make these sort of changes that saw whole industries, becoming uncompetitive and protected by powerful unions, having to go through massive upheaval   

 

[nirvana]

This is a good article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/apr/11/germaine-greer-margaret-thatcher-anniversary

Although I'm sure many won't like it, or bother to read it, and of course many will disagree with a lot of it.  Good article nevertheless.

Some interesting points but really loses the reader I think, when she talks about Lady Thatcher 'rearing a chancer' like the sins of the Mother are somehow visited on the son or his character and poor behaviours are relevant to assessing her

[bobby1]

I know this is a touchy subject and this is from someone who's fathers  trade became almost obsolete in the 80's too. Is it not unfair to label the mining episode as a bad thing, radically changing a profession that was mining something that was becoming obsolete in areas it had long been essential is progress isn't it?

I know it cost a lot of jobs and caused a lot of issues, the first house I ever bought was in a place that had a pit closed down, but grand scheme thinking surely it was the right thing to do and brave to go through with it despite the blow back.

I liked Simon's point too, so many people that were too young or not born in the late 70's to understand the winter of discontent stuff or remember the Falklands war are judging her career thru poll tax and other mistakes later on. Like all of us I guess some things she did were successful and others were bad.

[nirvana]

Definitely pro Thatcher here and proud of it. My life, my family and those around me certainly benefitted from having a PM with balls. T

Sums it up really, me me me.

Yes it may be a 'me, me, me' centric view but so what. First and foremost my family and their welfare is my priority and secondly everyone else. It's my view and I'll stand by it. I am now able to support my family and contribute to society by means of my tax contributions and charitable donations all largely down to Maggie.

The Thatcher years made me what I am today and I'm proud of that. It taught me that I should not expect things on a plate and that I should earn what I want out of life whether that's working for myself or for somebody else.

My parents and school teachers taught me that.

tbf, they didn't do enough of a job on you or you'd be in a job that had you making a tax contribution to society

He does contribute to society when he buys anything from a shop, fills his car up with petrol, pays his council tax, NI contributions, etc.

True, true - do you feel the same about tax exiles if they buy a lot here

[MANTIS01]

Thatcher was a Goliath when it came to the Falklands war and the British response was completely justified. The pride in our armed forces all around the country and respect gained around the world was immense.

On the other hand Blair presented fake intelligence in the commons and urged the country to bomb Iraq because of WMD which did not exist. He did this mainly because he wanted to gobble Bush's penis. This lead to massive loss of innocent life and hatred of Britain around the world. Then when our dead soldiers were repatriated people were allowed to stand on the streets and fist-pump due to free speech. Thatcher would NEVER have allowed that.

Anybody wishing to gain ground in the delusional hatred of Thatcher debate should shhhh about wars.

[bobby1]

Keith

Thatcher was always a hugely divisive figure as she had to change the country after the mess of the 1970s

This came at great social cost. The alternative was it happened over two decades not 5-6 years, and would have been worse for many more people

However to claim the Falklands was about winning the election is one of the great myths perpetuated by lazy thinkers.

She rang up the Junta and said "look I am in trouble, invade and I will be a war leader?" come on now, the Argentines invaded. She was meant to do nothing and let them go into Argentine sovereignty?

Of course not

Of course not, but in no way was a military response justified or justifiable.

The Argentinians would have left without a huge loss of life.

And the Tories would have lost the 1983 election.

How can we possible know any of that Keith. The only political agenda was from the Argentinian government who wanted to create some feel good in their own country by trying to reclaim Malvinas

[bobAlike]

You not a fan then Luther?

[TightEnd]

I know this is a touchy subject and this is from someone who's fathers  trade became almost obsolete in the 80's too. Is it not unfair to label the mining episode as a bad thing, radically changing a profession that was mining something that was becoming obsolete in areas it had long been essential is progress isn't it?

I know it cost a lot of jobs and caused a lot of issues, the first house I ever bought was in a place that had a pit closed down, but grand scheme thinking surely it was the right thing to do and brave to go through with it despite the blow back.

I liked Simon's point too, so many people that were too young or not born in the late 70's to understand the winter of discontent stuff or remember the Falklands war are judging her career thru poll tax and other mistakes later on. Like all of us I guess some things she did were successful and others were bad.

its much my point

The Mining and other industries were protected for decades by state intervention

they were uncompetitive, in an industry becoming obsolete by new fuels, more environmentally friendly fuels, fuels that were cheaper to mine and could be done so in countries with less union power


similarly the dockers, completely uncompetitive when other areas of the world had cheaper labour, less unionised etc

These were dying industries

There is no easy way to deal with the consequences for the thousands of people employed in these industries.

The alterative was not some sort of economic nirvana where everyone shored them up for ever at huge cost to the country, the alternative was these industries having to close over a much longer period

Took a very strong leader to do the changes so quickly, but the legacy is a real divide (geographically, socially) that persists in the country to this day

[Graham C]

Milk at my school was always warm, never enjoyed it.  Was glad when it all stopped.

[bobby1]

You said it much better than I did Rich.

[MANTIS01]

I liked the milk

[nirvana]

You not a fan then Luther?

Course not, he's soooo working class it hurts

[rfgqqabc]

Thatcher was a Goliath when it came to the Falklands war and the British response was completely justified. The pride in our armed forces all around the country and respect gained around the world was immense.

On the other hand Blair presented fake intelligence in the commons and urged the country to bomb Iraq because of WMD which did not exist. He did this mainly because he wanted to gobble Bush's penis. This lead to massive loss of innocent life and hatred of Britain around the world. Then when our soldiers were repatriated people were allowed to stand on the streets and fist-pump due to free speech. Thatcher would NEVER have allowed that.

Anybody wishing to gain ground in the delusional hatred of Thatcher debate should shhhh about wars.

I do not think everyone who bashes Thatcher has to be a Blair supporter. This thread has made me despise Politics grow threefold. So many flaws in any party based system. The more I think the less I feel qualified to vote, and the more I feel less qualified to vote, the more I worry about others that are too. Is that arrogance or intelligence? I just feel in no way qualified to vote for the best of the country, and don't want to vote purely in my favour, but if everyone did that then majority would rule and the country would be best off? First world problems though.

My apology was pretty weak Mantis, I was going to pm but I don't think your too upset by it. Just holding my hands up in public properly.