How bad is it to call here?

[mulhuzz]

are you suggesting having no 3bf range Alex?

because if you're calling this you have to call literally everything.

also, assuming balancing issues are relevent, I don't think you can 5bet anything either fwiw otherwise your peel range is going to be farrrrrr to weak.

I don't have a 3b/f range when somebody min4bets out of position no. Any normal size I would ofc fold.

Balancing issues are irrelevant here. There's some spots where I'd never be light, and this is one of them (if I 5bet I mean) because I felt that he would pile it in a lot with hands like AT, KJ. I felt he expected me to 5b him, so I respond to that by having a value-only 5bet range and just peel the rest.

totally agree with value only 5bs if you think balancing/meta is irrelevent (as it will be vs some unknown in general).

think not having a three-bet fold range, because in theory Villains entire range becomes his bet-4bet range. he can very easily make an adjustment to you if you don't fold *sometimes*.

[mondatoo]

are you suggesting having no 3bf range Alex?

because if you're calling this you have to call literally everything.

also, assuming balancing issues are relevent, I don't think you can 5bet anything either fwiw otherwise your peel range is going to be farrrrrr to weak.

I don't have a 3b/f range when somebody min4bets out of position no. Any normal size I would ofc fold.

Balancing issues are irrelevant here. There's some spots where I'd never be light, and this is one of them (if I 5bet I mean) because I felt that he would pile it in a lot with hands like AT, KJ. I felt he expected me to 5b him, so I respond to that by having a value-only 5bet range and just peel the rest.

Why are we 3 betting someone with T7os that we think is 4/6 balling with hands like KJ ?

Not trolling btw, just you seem to do this vs this type of villain quite often.

[pleno1]

i would not have a 5b range btw, def flatting kk and aa

[outragous76]

i would not have a 5b range btw, def flatting kk and aa

This is really interesting and something I toil with alot

Lots of times I think "peel and let them go crazy" and others I think "they think Im a spazzy so I should look spazzy"

And I have never come to which is the correct conclusion. I think I prefer jamming in the end as it stops them folding hands like JJ (which they might post flop)

But much more improtantly here, so few players in the UK have a light 5/6b range that "assuming thats what they will do so im gonna peel" has to be flawed thinking

[mondatoo]

i would not have a 5b range btw, def flatting kk and aa

Vs someone who's going to pile with KJ ?

[outragous76]

i would not have a 5b range btw, def flatting kk and aa

Vs someone who's going to pile with KJ ?

see my point above, I bet you couldnt name 15 players who regulalry play £300/400 events that have this in them (and I dont mean "did it once").

[Dubai]

Folding to 3bs and 4bs is way overrated.

[SuuPRlim]

if Pleno had a read that someone would be 6b jamming KJ then ofc he would 5bet AA. He means in general, and despite Alex's claims he had an inkling he was getting 6b this spot is still general.

I agree with pads Id not 5b anything as a defaullt, then if i was really sure he was light and didnt think him capable of 6b bluffing id consider a very small light 5b or if i had a magnum hand and felt like he was ready to 6b blow-up with something, then id throw a 5b in as an exploitative adjustment to my strategy. The 3b has to be pretty bowl, if you'd picked any other hand to 3bet then you'd be in a great spot now, as it happens you're going to put more money in, vs a wide/dominating range with an offsuit 3 gapper, cool.

I'd still call though prolly, but i'd have T7s

[pleno1]

i would not have a 5b range btw, def flatting kk and aa

Vs someone who's going to pile with KJ ?

Even if we feel that he could sometimes pile, there is also just a chance that he says ah this kid has put in 7 our of 20k, he aint folding!

And meh even if sometimes they will 6b jam KJ they are just as capable as going bananas post flop.

Lets say we peel with AA and the pot is around 9k with 20 back, its just such a small SPR that we can play the top of our range so well vs. Lets say we always get a 4.5k cbet out of him, like ALWAYS. Then that is 25% chips confirmed vs the times when he folds. I would say we get the rest every time he turns any form or equity or has any pair.

I mean he has 20k and has made it 4k, by absolutely no means commiting hmself to the hand, but when we do 5b, we DO commit ourselves to the hand. We would raise to 7k or something and just looks ridic strong. He knows that his sizing is small though so our range appears super wide, I mean we are peling t7o so its fine.

Also if we do want to flat everything then bonus is it protects our range too.

We can never be sure somebody will 6b light, its more liekly we are just levelling ourselves, yes they may be tempted, yes they may tank, yes they may say this is so sick, but its likely they will sigh fold. I think flatitng AA/KK is definitely going to be the best play.

I wouldnt fold much to the 4bet, but I'm not sure I would ever 3bet T7o initially anyway. I'd actually have a really strong range here which is basically AK+ lol.

[mondatoo]

i would not have a 5b range btw, def flatting kk and aa

Vs someone who's going to pile with KJ ?

Even if we feel that he could sometimes pile, there is also just a chance that he says ah this kid has put in 7 our of 20k, he aint folding!

And meh even if sometimes they will 6b jam KJ they are just as capable as going bananas post flop.

Lets say we peel with AA and the pot is around 9k with 20 back, its just such a small SPR that we can play the top of our range so well vs. Lets say we always get a 4.5k cbet out of him, like ALWAYS. Then that is 25% chips confirmed vs the times when he folds. I would say we get the rest every time he turns any form or equity or has any pair.

I mean he has 20k and has made it 4k, by absolutely no means commiting hmself to the hand, but when we do 5b, we DO commit ourselves to the hand. We would raise to 7k or something and just looks ridic strong. He knows that his sizing is small though so our range appears super wide, I mean we are peling t7o so its fine.

Also if we do want to flat everything then bonus is it protects our range too.

We can never be sure somebody will 6b light, its more liekly we are just levelling ourselves, yes they may be tempted, yes they may tank, yes they may say this is so sick, but its likely they will sigh fold. I think flatitng AA/KK is definitely going to be the best play.

I wouldnt fold much to the 4bet, but I'm not sure I would ever 3bet T7o initially anyway. I'd actually have a really strong range here which is basically AK+ lol.

I knew Pads would give this sort of detailed response which is why I posted the question.

[cambridgealex]

are you suggesting having no 3bf range Alex?

because if you're calling this you have to call literally everything.

also, assuming balancing issues are relevent, I don't think you can 5bet anything either fwiw otherwise your peel range is going to be farrrrrr to weak.

I don't have a 3b/f range when somebody min4bets out of position no. Any normal size I would ofc fold.

Balancing issues are irrelevant here. There's some spots where I'd never be light, and this is one of them (if I 5bet I mean) because I felt that he would pile it in a lot with hands like AT, KJ. I felt he expected me to 5b him, so I respond to that by having a value-only 5bet range and just peel the rest.

Why are we 3 betting someone with T7os that we think is 4/6 balling with hands like KJ ?

Not trolling btw, just you seem to do this vs this type of villain quite often.

Don't get me wrong I'd rather have a better hand. But I wasn't dealt any better!

Don't know what you mean I seem to do this vs this type of quite often. 3betting this sort of hand is vunusual for me, I can't think of many times I've done this before, certainly not that have been reported on blonde, so not sure what you mean there.

Unless you mean I seem to 3b light vs villains that will 4bet light? I kinda agree with you, but also have my reasons for it, but I do agree that in this particular hand my 3bet is bad because of my reaction to the 4bet was that I wasn't surprised (only surprised by his sizing), so yeh, just fold pre ldo.

Think it's fine to 3bet a super wide range IP vs a player you think won't 4bet light and won't defend wide / will play bad postflop. But since he 4bet and I still felt he had hands like AT and KJ in his range then it makes it bad.

[mondatoo]

are you suggesting having no 3bf range Alex?

because if you're calling this you have to call literally everything.

also, assuming balancing issues are relevent, I don't think you can 5bet anything either fwiw otherwise your peel range is going to be farrrrrr to weak.

I don't have a 3b/f range when somebody min4bets out of position no. Any normal size I would ofc fold.

Balancing issues are irrelevant here. There's some spots where I'd never be light, and this is one of them (if I 5bet I mean) because I felt that he would pile it in a lot with hands like AT, KJ. I felt he expected me to 5b him, so I respond to that by having a value-only 5bet range and just peel the rest.

Why are we 3 betting someone with T7os that we think is 4/6 balling with hands like KJ ?

Not trolling btw, just you seem to do this vs this type of villain quite often.

Don't get me wrong I'd rather have a better hand.

Don't know what you mean I seem to do this vs this type of quite often. 3betting this sort of hand is vunusual for me, I can't think of many times I've done this before, certainly not that have been reported on blonde, so not sure what you mean there.

Unless you mean I seem to 3b light vs villains that will 4bet light? I kinda agree with you, but also have my reasons for it, but I do agree that in this particular hand my 3bet is bad because of my reaction to the 4bet was that I wasn't surprised (only surprised by his sizing), so yeh, just fold pre ldo.

Think it's fine to 3bet a super wide range IP vs a player you think won't 4bet light and won't defend wide / will play bad postflop. But since he 4bet and I still felt he had hands like AT and KJ in his range then it makes it bad.

Think this is 3rd time I remember reading you 3b really light vs a maniac, DTD 300 were you made 2pr on turn, vaguely remember something similar in WPT hand, you found the world then to.

#notbitterhonest 

Obv different reasons in different spots but remember thinking why everytime.

[mulhuzz]

great post from pads - if they can bluff KJ by going abs ballistic pre, they can do so post, too. simple, but true.

[cambridgealex]

@monda, that was ! Premium no?! And that was vs a maniac yes, but he defended 83s oop and yes, I like to 3bet light just to isolate those sort of players so we go heads up with me in position with the betting lead, I think it's wayy better than calling and going multiway where you usually have to make the best hand to win. Obviously this is vs players with low/0 4bet bluff frequencies.

Some selection bias from you there I think - yes sometimes I make hands with these light 3bets, and these are the hands that get reported on live updates etc, you don't hear about all the times I miss the flop and win/lose the pot without showdown.

#notbitterhonest

does sound a bit bitter tbh monda.

@pads, good post, I suppose the counter argument is that you lose out all the times they are 4b/calling or 5b/calling with hands like AT, 88+ and they flop terrible and have to c/f or you just get one bet from them.

[pleno1]

thats the thing mate, I would totally agree with you online, because players adjust in such a way that they widen their value range vs you and 88 plays well vs your 3b 5b range when youl include small pairs and sutied aces, but in the live arena I dont feel like they make these adjustments and are more like to peel 88 and eithe rpeel or 4b bluff at.