Scoop Line Check

[outragous76]

We do t even know if villain bets yet

I agree having reviewed stacks it's unlikely we can continue thou if he does

[pleno1]

We do t even know if villain bets yet

I agree having reviewed stacks it's unlikely we can continue thou if he does

But I just dont understand what stack size we would want to c call against and why? im genuinely interested and not trolling I promise mate.

[outragous76]

We do t even know if villain bets yet

I agree having reviewed stacks it's unlikely we can continue thou if he does

But I just dont understand what stack size we would want to c call against and why? im genuinely interested and not trolling I promise mate.

Assuming we are much deeper

We are ahead of some of his range
We can improve to better hands
We were the cold 4 bettor so he can easily believe we are slowing down with hands that beat his made range () cause we are oop

Do I need to keep going?

[Rexas]

I don't like check calling here. We can be drawing dead against a fair amount of his range here, and even though we COULD be ahead against some flush draws, those are very specific draws, like AJ/AK/A10c. What we really have to look at is what we can actually beat here. Is there not also a risk that if we do improve out hand on the river, we're going to have to pay off one of these hands that has us dead, or a hand that improves itself on the same card? We are essentially going to be floating a turn here OOP with just two overs, and it's going to be hard for us to take it away on the river because we are OOP. Basically, even though we have a chance of being good here, part of our edge is in being able to give up these very marginal spots and have the patience to wait for a better one. If the guy has peeled your raise pre and floated a flop IP just to take it away on the turn, then so be it. I don't think check calling here is a winning play, just check fold, we can only beat a bluff and we're going to be creating a pretty sizeable pot to bluff catch on the river.

[rfgqqabc]

There are obv plenty flush hands that we beat Acxc types

I more likley think he holds the 9T QJ KQ type holdings that peel pre and just got there thou

obv depends on bet size and action (assuming he bets) - i guess with our stack size we may well have to fold (didnt give it much attention)

We have less than a pot sized bet left? I think your ideas about villains hand are completely off, he has peeled a cold 4bet.

so his range is?

rly? AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/88/44 KQs QJs 89s T9s JTs A3s A5s KTs one combo of each.

Check/calling here would be BEYOND horrible unless we have some sort of golden read.

Check/calling deeper is still horrible. We have AK high in a 4bet pot, on a board which hits even the weakest parts of villains range pretty hard. I don't even know why he would flat Axcc on the flop, but its about the only thing we beat. We have poor visibility, have no idea what our opponent has, the only thing he could have and we beat more than likely raises the flop.

[outragous76]

There are obv plenty flush hands that we beat Acxc types

I more likley think he holds the 9T QJ KQ type holdings that peel pre and just got there thou

obv depends on bet size and action (assuming he bets) - i guess with our stack size we may well have to fold (didnt give it much attention)

We have less than a pot sized bet left? I think your ideas about villains hand are completely off, he has peeled a cold 4bet.

so his range is?

rly? AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/88/44 KQs QJs 89s T9s JTs A3s A5s KTs one combo of each.

Check/calling here would be BEYOND horrible unless we have some sort of golden read.

Check/calling deeper is still horrible. We have AK high in a 4bet pot, on a board which hits even the weakest parts of villains range pretty hard. I don't even know why he would flat Axcc on the flop, but its about the only thing we beat. We have poor visibility, have no idea what our opponent has, the only thing he could have and we beat more than likely raises the flop.

44 88 99? really? choose hands which beat us why dont you

no way he just  calls with JJ QQ post flop becasue that isnt he M.O. of people cold peeling those hands

so that leaves your range exactly the same as mine - except im less likely to take people for AA KK (but would obv never exclude them)

The reason people dont pile Acxc here is cause we are repping the top of our range and therefore they peel another (as obv we may be inclined ot slow doen so they are potentially buying a free card).  Obv some people jam and I think both ways are acceptable

[PathFinder]

Maybe I'm being a bit spewy in these spots then?! I just felt our cold 4 bet range looks like: AA KK QQ JJ AK AQ and only 2 parts of this become the bottom of our range on the turn. Big sigh from me

[rfgqqabc]

There are obv plenty flush hands that we beat Acxc types

I more likley think he holds the 9T QJ KQ type holdings that peel pre and just got there thou

obv depends on bet size and action (assuming he bets) - i guess with our stack size we may well have to fold (didnt give it much attention)

We have less than a pot sized bet left? I think your ideas about villains hand are completely off, he has peeled a cold 4bet.

so his range is?

rly? AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/88/44 KQs QJs 89s T9s JTs A3s A5s KTs one combo of each.

Check/calling here would be BEYOND horrible unless we have some sort of golden read.

Check/calling deeper is still horrible. We have AK high in a 4bet pot, on a board which hits even the weakest parts of villains range pretty hard. I don't even know why he would flat Axcc on the flop, but its about the only thing we beat. We have poor visibility, have no idea what our opponent has, the only thing he could have and we beat more than likely raises the flop.

44 88 99? really? choose hands which beat us why dont you

no way he just  calls with JJ QQ post flop becasue that isnt he M.O. of people cold peeling those hands

so that leaves your range exactly the same as mine - except im less likely to take people for AA KK (but would obv never exclude them)

The reason people dont pile Acxc here is cause we are repping the top of our range and therefore they peel another (as obv we may be inclined ot slow doen so they are potentially buying a free card).  Obv some people jam and I think both ways are acceptable

Its hard to find a hand we beat. I'd say 22 but that doesnt flat flop? Can you construct a range we have a profitable c/c against with any stacksize?

[Rexas]

What hands specifically do you put the guy on then? I actually agree with Adam here, that the villain's range preflop includes basically any pair, and a whole bunch of suited broadway cards. His range post includes most of those broadways, plus 44 and 88 and above for pairs. As I see it (at its VERY widest)

Pre
22/33/44/55/66/77/88/99/1010/JJ/(QQ)
J10/QJ/KJ/KQ/A10/AJ/AQ/(AK)
Plus a bunch of decent suited connectors, maybe as wide as 45/56/67/78/89/910 (Personally, IP, I'm happy seeing flops with a lot of these hands, this is VERY villain specific)

Flop
44/88/99/1010/JJ/QQ
J10/QJ/KJ/KQc/A10c/AJc/AQc/AKc (we don't have any blockers to the big club draws, which is obv vital in our decision making here)
67/78/89/910.

Of these hands, by the turn, we beat a grand total of: KJ, A10c, AJc, 67. Continuing in the hand doesn't look great IMO.

[Rexas]

Bit of a quoting fail there :p

I'm not including KK and AA simply because I assume this goes in pre.

[PathFinder]

In regards to the last sentence, surely it doesn't matter that we only beat those hands. It's what our entire range beats? Just playing our hand vs villains range seems a little 1 dimensional??

Anyone else agree or am I like that weird kid at school?!

[Rexas]

If I could take back all the times I've tried to make someone fold a pair, I'd have a much healthier bank balance. I think we're just safer assuming the guy is thinking along the lines of "I have pair, I call" until we specifically KNOW otherwise. Trying to get someone to fold to the very top of our perceived range of AA/KK/QQ/AQ, when he's already committed a fair bit to the pot, involves asserting a fair amount of credit to the villain's ability, and his perception of us. By checking, we also make our hand a little more face up, and what do we do if he checks back, bluff the river? If we check call the turn, a lot of the villains range is just going to check back the river, there are so few bluffs in his range that basically I think we'd be throwing away chips on the turn with no real plan for the river. The number of people that I see calling a raise who basically have the intention of check folding the next street is great news, because they tend to give me money.

[LonOhRay]

3b can be larger pre, no need for balance with sizings in this mtt we have AKo not AA

Jam pre is good as its a super ko

Check fold turn if he bets and its not close

[youthnkzR]

terrible barrel card, probably the worst.

Q obv smashes his peel range - im check calling turn and meh folding unimproved rivers to any decent bet

Good idea we might make a pair!!!!!!

[PathFinder]

The PHA board is so bitchy lol!