Pocket JJ

[titaniumbean]

+1 to Dubai although Pleno does look a little bit like a baby troll. Bless

he's so small he just loves the game!

[BulldozerD]

well i'd quite like a fold in all situations. I'd probably only cold 4 and proceed to put more money in if the opponents had never played poker before and didnt like money.

[Rexas]

Ok, I'll take back the earlier comment about being a troll. But the following comment still stands, the tone of these posts is kinda unnecessary, and this basically makes them unconstructive. It's very hard to take serious note of someone's advice when it seems like they're taking a dig at the fact that you're asking for the advice in the first place.

how are these even questions, especially number 1? not even close to becoming close, KK would be close.

This, for example, is in no way a useful comment, and really is only ever going to make me feel pretty defensive, for absolutely no reason. Tbh, I think most people are going to find it difficult to react to this sort of post in a positive way, other than ignoring it completely, which defeats the object of posting in the first place. I apologise if i caused offence with the word "troll".

[EvilPie]

Squeezing JJ this deep in a 'solid' game is never likely to end well. Just set mine and on flops like the one described try to keep the pot as small as possible.

A good way of keeping a pot small is to not put any further money in to it.

Donking would be classed as putting money in so should be avoided.

With some good reads and a spewey image you've got a lovely hand where squeezing and donking would work well.

As described you've got a bit of a dog in the worst possible seat.

[Tal]

How about we all agree everybody hates jacks and move on?

[EvilPie]

How about we all agree everybody hates jacks and move on?

Can't possibly agree with this.

All you have to do is get blind drunk, throw a load of money about and show a few bluffs.

After that jacks become absolutely delightful.

[Tal]

How about we all agree everybody hates jacks and move on?

Can't possibly agree with this.

All you have to do is get blind drunk, throw a load of money about and show a few bluffs.

After that jacks become absolutely delightful.

Yeah I'm 0 for 3 there

[rfgqqabc]

How about we all agree everybody hates jacks and move on?

Can't possibly agree with this.

All you have to do is get blind drunk, throw a load of money about and show a few bluffs.

After that jacks become absolutely delightful.

Agree that jacks are delightful. I like the 4th best starting hand sober too. and 64s.

[jgcblack]

Ok, I'll take back the earlier comment about being a troll. But the following comment still stands, the tone of these posts is kinda unnecessary, and this basically makes them unconstructive. It's very hard to take serious note of someone's advice when it seems like they're taking a dig at the fact that you're asking for the advice in the first place.

how are these even questions, especially number 1? not even close to becoming close, KK would be close.

This, for example, is in no way a useful comment, and really is only ever going to make me feel pretty defensive, for absolutely no reason. Tbh, I think most people are going to find it difficult to react to this sort of post in a positive way, other than ignoring it completely, which defeats the object of posting in the first place. I apologise if i caused offence with the word "troll".

Knowing neither of you well but both of you a little....

It looks to me like you've read his comments and taken them a little too much to heart.

Tbh mate, in this spot I wouldn't ever be considering doing anything other than flatting oop and hoping to see a flop 4 ways oop.  We make a great setmining hand and can even play our hand for value, even if we have to play it a little more passively than we'd like.

We are readless vs the two we're going to be committed to getting it in vs (JJ 'might' not be bad to get in.. but in small live games they're often not 'great' either - not aggressive enough dynamics ime).

We don't want to be getting into a pot vs the UTG when his continuing range will crush us and he will be IP with a reasonable PSR.



Also, just because someone doesn't sugar coat it - doesn't make it bad advice.
I guess what I'm trying to say (but tired so forgive me) is that thinking about another raise here, is bad.  Very bad, purely because of the general population tendancies at this level.

We have JJ, its like the 'best' setmining hand... because it can even be good without a triplet.

Pleno's comments were a little kurt, however they are correct.  Your two questions are crazy...even I say snap fold in both situations.
We're playing £1/1 because they're NOT wizards.... if they were we could've got it in pre.  If they are raising and reraising on this texture with 77-1010, LET THEM have it!

[Tal]

Just reread this for the first time in nearly a year.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=58371.msg1602177#msg1602177

Completely forgot about the 83 hand lol. Happy days, when raising unnecessarily didn't get me chastened.

[wazz]

I don't play 1/1 regularly but it seems to me their ranges will be stronger when they 3b, so I'm pretty happy to call; calling doesn't mean set-mining, it means sometimes saving money when an overcard hits and we were up against a higher overpair, saving money when we would have 4b and they call correctly with overcards and hit, and saving money when we 4b and they call (incorrectly) with underpairs and hit. Lots of people call along even OOP so there's no particular reason our hand should look that strong, and we definitely rate to get paid off if we hit a set. When we 4b the best result we can see is people folding, because when 1 calls, someone ends up calling behind, and then we have no idea what to do on A/K/Q-high flops, where we generally have an easy c/f on those boards when we don't hit. Yes, we're going to end up in some troublesome spots when we just flat and the pot goes 4-ways, but for much smaller pots and against much wider (weaker) ranges than when we 4bet, and we possibly fold out some disciplined lower pairs that we might have coolered.

If you were absolutely terrible postflop I would probably make it £50 and discourage action.

Postflop:

1) I fold now, the guy with lots of money behind is saying he likes the flop in the face of you liking your hand a lot preflop, and the hand is very likely to go to showdown. If he ended up raising a worse hand than yours right now he likely still has some equity and you're allowed to be bluffed sometimes.

2) If you donk after flatting and face the same action as above it's a harder fold but still a fold. You're hoping one villain is on a lower pair and the other is on a draw. Even then you're not in great shape.

3) Fold still!

[verndog158]

we all know what norman chad says... jacks are just tens in disguise, tens are just nines in disguise, nines are just eights in diguise. so jacks is bacisally a disguised pocket eassyyyy fold then

[SuuPRlim]

Yh flat pre-flop, the "good" thing about pocket John's is that whereas you have a nice set-mining oppurtunity, with nice stacks but also you give yourself the "chance" to have a pretty strong bluff catcher - I'm not saying we should be hell bent on stationing down with JJ on raggy runouts btw! And a situation might crop up in the hand where you face a bet and can legitimately beat a few value bets, or be able to value bet yourself without making a set - a luxury you rarely have with 88 or 77. 4betting here in these games really just Iso's you against some very strong ranges (which you'll still do OK vs)

As played, in the 3 questions you posed, Pleno is right they are all non brainers, 1) we bet, get raised (HATING a single raise even on this board) and then shoved on, its a very straightforward pass almost irrespective of the opponents - play with ranges in pokerstove for 5 hours you'll never get any reasonable ranges for the pair of them to make stacking off here anything near pleasant.

2) This wouldn't really be a good donk, we have no connection to the board at all, we're OOP, have bad visibility (we're gonna hate a lot of turn cards and not know whether to bet/fold or chk/call or w/e) all we're really achieving is taking the random c-bets and stabs out of our opponents ranges, and we're giving them a brilliant oppurtunity to semi-bluff us by giving them the option of the second bet. Facing just one raise would suck, 2 is a very easy fold imo.

3) Again, simple fold, we're not closing the action and the raiser will have good equity against us definately.

Number 3, calling PF and chking and folding to the flop action is the best way to play, its a crime of inexperience in deep stacked play getting yourself into trouble with these hands in these spots, it's ot a tournament, we can fold "the best hand" here and there if it avoids horrible troublesome spots for us - this hand didnt need to be a disaster.

[dakky]

3) Again, simple fold, we're not closing the action and the raiser will have good equity against us definately.

Number 3, calling PF and chking and folding to the flop action is the best way to play, its a crime of inexperience in deep stacked play getting yourself into trouble with these hands in these spots, it's ot a tournament, we can fold "the best hand" here and there if it avoids horrible troublesome spots for us - this hand didnt need to be a disaster.

I think this thinking is so underrated. Keeping things simple for us, passing marginal spots especially live where you will be able to find much better opportunities with lower risk. ESPECIALLY at these stakes.