Live Poker : Decison Time & Time Bank

[relaedgc]

Simon,

In my personal opinion, I don't believe that it's a good idea to put the decision in the hands of the dealing staff. The beautiful thing about being floor is that once you've made a potentially aggravating decision, you're able to walk away. If they have to declare a hand dead - especially working on an internet speed mechanic, it's surely going to upset people - and the dealer is now the object of ire; in effect calling a clock and then killing their hand.

I certainly think it does have merits, though, but I'd suggest you implement it slowly and based upon feedback either expand or disband as applicable.

[Ant040689]

Would also add, just the notion of it being introduced may add a stress factor to some and make them enjoy it less. Feeling pressure that makes them more flustered and getting reduced enjoyment out of the game and perhaps, against the intention of this being introduced, the player would love more time, but would have had the same action done if the time bank measure wasn't in place.

Probably overshooting it though, as the times suggested are probably more ample then i realise.

Also how will the dealer take to always thinking about the time?

Would some players look to max out their allotted time for the sake of it knowing they can even though it is unnecessary just because the whole thing has become more exposed by the introduction of the shot clock?

I am just throwing those things out there. I quite like the idea.

[edgascoigne]

Love the idea, but 15secs is nowhere near enough.

Think you can do a 45/90/120 split by buy in level, perhaps doubling where any player is having to decide for tournament life?

[Junior Senior]

15 secs way too short!
I agree that people in general play too slow but with large sums of money at stake thats understandable.
It could be a real car crash and very fiddly for the dealers to police in terms of when they start the clock, in what circumstances it can be stopped and they have to do that for every player on every hand on every street. It may lead to more dealer mistakes which can be one of the worst things about live poker.

Why not just give the dealers more powers to clamp down on persistent slow play and people not paying attention.

I would be interested to know the specific feedback that has brought about this need for change

[Longy]

Love the idea and have seen it work well on the whole in cash games in Australia.

I think you need to lengthen the min time to 30 secs across the board and a time bank chip should be added at each break (assuming 2 hours between breaks).

My experience is no one, regs or recs enjoy watching some dwell up constantly and slow the game down but do understand when someone has a genuine decision to make.

[GaryM]

In principle I can see merit in trialing a means of controlling this. The times proposed though seem too restrictive and I don't see why a decision window is proportional to the structure. I appreciate that the impact of a player tanking in a 20 minute level clock game has a greater impact than in a 45 minute structure but the same spot in either game should, imo, be given equal opportunity to think through.

[MANTIS01]

Slow play can be a problem in golf and officials issue a warning and then a penalty, they don't stand there counting down from 5 as the golfer takes his backswing. The best dealers I've seen have always managed the pace of their game so would prefer dealers to be trained to manage the game more proactively and call in TD if there is an ongoing issue. Dealers could be counting down from 5 in the first hand of a comp which seems ridic. What happens if you lose your time bank chip at some point? Players are given a new time bank chip along with a forgetful chip? If you get 3 forgetful chips in one month then you can't have a new timebank chip if you lose it?

It's amazing that with the influx of internet mutes into live poker there now has to be a mechanism in place for everything whereas people used to rely on the power of speech. It's like that cloth bag with the red and black cards to indicate if you want to deal rather than speaking. Just call the clock if you are genuinely pissed about slow play imo.

[outragous76]

You also need to be careful with the "unintended consequences of taxation. " 

You are doing this to change behaviour, however there are often consequences that also change behaviour. 

For example, if each player has 1 minute to act on the bubble, then each hand can fairly take 9 mins on the bubble. Obviously the decisions on the bubble, are invariably tougher so you can't take away this time bank to save this from occurring. 

Also some people who have snap folded for 2 days, can rightly not even look at their hand for this 1 minute period. 

I'm just not sure the problem is so bad that this is the response. It's interesting that industry wide people have called for a shot clock, but I'm not certain there is a reasonable response.

I also hadn't even considered the fact this is dealer implemented, and some players already give dealers grief, this is just another thing they will use. 

[CHIPPYMAN]

i don't think a dealer should be declaring any hand dead tbh. also agree beginners should be under less pressure/more relaxed.

at which point does the time start? what if the bet needs counting down exact? what if they were just sorting payment for a valet?

i like the idea but it needs tweaking

Mitch will also agree to this I presume !!

[RED-DOG]

Simon.

With the greatest respect mate, I think this is a terrible Idea. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You are trying to make live poker mirror online poker. I know you can do it, but you will lose a lot in the process.

Live poker is all about the information that players give away at the table, what they say, how they act and how they react.

Sometimes during a hand, I might want to ask a player a question or exchange a few words with him before deciding on my action. I might not even be involved in the hand, but I can still gain information by listening to the exchanges between other players.

I act pretty quickly most of the time, but the last thing I want is to be worrying about how much time I have available to speak to the bloke I'm in a hand with.

Also. what If I ask him a question when it's his turn to act? I know he doesn't have to answer but he may want to, and anyway, merely thinking about it will be eating into his time ration. Don't forget, he doesn't have the option of switching the chat off like he would if he were playing online.

If players are continually under time pressure, other players will take advantage of that fact and the whole dynamic of the game will change.

Also- Less thinking time for smaller comps? Where's the logic in that? Can small stake recreational players think faster than big buy in players?

The banter between players as a hand plays out is the very essence of live poker, and in my opinion anything that curtails this is a step in the wrong direction.

If you make the live poker experience too much like playing online, people will just play online.

xx

[YEAHMAN123]

Not sure this will go down well. As said above 15,20secs to make a decision in spots is not long enough. I understand when a player is taking minutes to make a decision fine but 20secs isn't long enough. It's rare I or other call the floor for a clock in a game. I personally don't like this idea and like to be given time to make a decision if its my my tourney life

[NEWY]

Simon.

With the greatest respect mate, I think this is a terrible Idea. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You are trying to make live poker mirror online poker. I know you can do it, but you will lose a lot in the process.

Live poker is all about the information that players give away at the table, what they say, how they act and how they react.

Sometimes during a hand, I might want to ask a player a question or exchange a few words with him before deciding on my action. I might not even be involved in the hand, but I can still gain information by listening to the exchanges between other players.

I act pretty quickly most of the time, but the last thing I want is to be worrying about how much time I have available to speak to the bloke I'm in a hand with.

Also. what If I ask him a question when it's his turn to act? I know he doesn't have to answer but he may want to, and anyway, merely thinking about it will be eating into his time ration. Don't forget, he doesn't have the option of switching the chat off like he would if he were playing online.

If players are continually under time pressure, other players will take advantage of that fact and the whole dynamic of the game will change.

Also- Less thinking time for smaller comps? Where's the logic in that? Can small stake recreational players think faster than big buy in players?

The banter between players as a hand plays out is the very essence of live poker, and in my opinion anything that curtails this is a step in the wrong direction.

If you make the live poker experience too much like playing online, people will just play online.

xx

I was about to write something similar to this before I read what red had said. He articulates it better than me so will leave my thoughts in his capable hands.

Dont punish the majority because of a minorty. If I am pasing I pass quickly but if I occassionally have a decision to make I want to be allowed to make it properly and without pressure. If someone at the table is taking an age every hand then give the dealers powers to politely request they speed up and if they dont then maybe issue them with the stop clock idea just for them.

[outragous76]

I also think that the proposed solution doesn't solve the aggravating problems. Its people who don't look at their cards for 15 seconds when its their turn, its people who have their "20 second routine" so that they don't give off tells.  These are the guys who cause the problems.

I'm not sure anyone really gets upset when someone has a genuine decision to make, because we have all been there, and sometimes decisions can be tough. (obv except the short stack who is watching the clock)

Its the serial offenders who cause the angst, and I think maybe a series of escalating warnings should be applied. When they get to a third level warning (or something) they are then given a time disc, which they can use once and once only. (I not saying this is the solution, just throwing it out there, I have already thought of several angles to this already whilst typing).

Also guys that do get called out for timewasting under this proposal, will probably just tank for 30/60 seconds every hand to be petty.



 

[outragous76]

Infact, thinking this through further, this rule could end up having the polar opposite effect of its desired intention.

If you are playing vs someone with whom you have a dynamic, you are far more likely to take all of your allotted time on every street, due to the fact that if you get to a very difficult river, you are only going to have 60 seconds to make your decision. So a hand that might take 2 minutes to play out now takes 10 minutes.

The more you think it through the more this sounds like an unworkable idea.

[nirvana]

Hate all the time wasting at tables but this will def punish the whole class cause one kid made a fart noise