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Author Topic: Early in Bigger 109 turned TPTK against two winning UK grinders  (Read 7870 times)
railtard1
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2013, 12:01:03 AM »

doesnt seem that close. fold.

This is a really lazy, arrogant and some what rude post imo. I say this as Your contribution on PHA over the past 18 months is probably second to none, but just to say it aint close and to fold is defo lazy, not that constructive and can most certainly be viewed as arrogant (i know u dont mean it this way obv).

I think your right in a vaccum that we can / should probably just fold to matt's c/r, but as jamie said, matt is defo good enuff to have bluffs here (the majority of these bluffs do obviously have a ton of equity though). It definately is a grosser spot against a decent player / capable hand reader than it would be vs a fish (can comfortably bet/fold the turn against a 3way c/r from a fish imo). We probably have the top of our somewhat capped range which makes it even more annoying to bet/fold but i think (however much i wouldnt LOVE it) we probably just have to fold to his c/r with checktrap11 behind.
It hasnt been mentioned yet so think its worth saying, utg+1 at a 9 handed table, small antes, i dont mind just folding AJo, im a massive nit tho :-)
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muckthenuts
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2013, 12:56:29 AM »

Just have to tap the table and say if you've got it nice hand, if you're bluffing nice play. Just too spewy to do anything else in this particular instance.
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Jables20
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2013, 01:57:55 AM »


It hasnt been mentioned yet so think its worth saying, utg+1 at a 9 handed table, small antes, i dont mind just folding AJo, im a massive nit tho :-)

very true, was a lazy open from me just seeing AJo, clicking raise and not really looking who had position/was in the BB. given the line up I think I prefer open fold
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Jables20
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2013, 02:13:02 AM »


Agree my range is capped to 1 pair and Franky is absolutely capable of abusing that fact. We also chatted about a really similar spot in person very recently so I was really torn between thinking 'he's 20 tabling here, just fold' and 'we spoke about this spot two weeks ago and he's doing exactly what he said he'd do with lots of different hands vs a capped range'

Aghhhhh
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railtard1
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2013, 03:21:53 AM »


Agree my range is capped to 1 pair and Franky is absolutely capable of abusing that fact. We also chatted about a really similar spot in person very recently so I was really torn between thinking 'he's 20 tabling here, just fold' and 'we spoke about this spot two weeks ago and he's doing exactly what he said he'd do with lots of different hands vs a capped range'

Aghhhhh

yh obv hand takes new dynamic when u have the above to factor in.

I know u fold TPTK tho, so gimme the 86hh again and ill take off :-)
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pleno1
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2013, 04:00:47 AM »

its 30-60 and we are drawing dead vs a value range and not doing great vs a bluffing range and probably fold some rivers when we are good.


Yeh just think its really simple because of the above.

But ya ur right
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
The Squid
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 06:03:05 AM »

We have pretty close to top of our range here so maybe against a player we're gonna be battling with a lot call and have a range of river cards you calling on and a range you folding on.

A lot depends on who the caller is. If it's someone you think Frankie views as a fish then it makes it more of a fold.

I would c-bet flop.
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pleno1
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2013, 06:21:38 AM »

Why would you bet the flop?
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
pleno1
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 06:22:12 AM »

Admittedly a lot of Turb cards are good or us so betting aj instead of ak may be ok.
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
PathFinder
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 08:02:58 AM »


I knew I wouldn't be the only one and Sam grafton of all people to agree with me. I don't need anyone else to back this up now Smiley

So it's gone from cbetting flop is awful/bad too ok? Just because someone other than me said so Pleno? Admittedly it was Sam but still...
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:05:56 AM by PathFinder » Logged
rbc_mike
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2013, 08:33:26 AM »

Interesting thread here.  I'm thinking, unless we check really strong hands like sets otf, do we even have a turn bet/call range?  In which case, seems like checking > betting ott against two compotent opponents, given that we should theoretically be doing that with our entire range having checked the flop?
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Dying's for fools.
pleno1
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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2013, 08:47:08 AM »


I knew I wouldn't be the only one and Sam grafton of all people to agree with me. I don't need anyone else to back this up now Smiley

So it's gone from cbetting flop is awful/bad too ok? Just because someone other than me said so Pleno? Admittedly it was Sam but still...

No I think betting flop is awful still by would rather bet aj than ak.

I'd check fold close to 100% here board just smashes pre flop calling ranges. Nothig significantly worse calls and nothing better folds.

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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
PathFinder
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« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2013, 09:15:54 AM »

You could get quite a few better hands to fold, sure it will take more than 1 barrel but that's just the way I roll Wink #EmptyingTheClip.

If you cbet and all pocket pairs call, 10-x and other 2nd pair rubbish an barrel a QJKA or club turn and do again on river be hard for villian to call down as we turn up with top of our range a lot with this line if he heroes then well done him but they couldn't snap.
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Nit Tendencies
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Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?


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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2013, 02:45:37 PM »

You could get quite a few better hands to fold, sure it will take more than 1 barrel but that's just the way I roll Wink #EmptyingTheClip.

If you cbet and all pocket pairs call, 10-x and other 2nd pair rubbish an barrel a QJKA or club turn and do again on river be hard for villian to call down as we turn up with top of our range a lot with this line if he heroes then well done him but they couldn't snap.

This is another really lazy remark. It's actually really easy for him to call down when you barrel those turn cards considering that you just said you would cbet like 80% of your opening range, resulting in you making it to the turn with far too many combinations of hands, drastically unbalancing your range.

I'm not sure why people think that c-betting is the only (or best) way to play loads of different parts of your range. Before ever making a bet (or any other action) you must consider what that action accomplishes.

With a bet we either want to be betting:

A) For value; A bet which can be called or raised by worse hands or bluffs.

B) As a bluff; A bet which makes worse hands fold.

C) For protection or to shut down equity; Neither a value bet nor a bluff, just a bet which protects a weak value hand from the equity of hands that won't continue (not relevant here).

In this example, we don't accomplish any of these things to a relevant degree; No better hand ever folds the flop and no worse hand ever calls the flop (at least not a hand which doesn't have significant equity vs our hand to such a degree that we never realise our own equity).



This romantic notion that you can just bet 3 way on a board which smashes peeling ranges and just barrel any overcard may have had some credibility in 2003, but it certainly doesn't in today's ecosystem, ESPECIALLY against two competent (one significantly more than the other fwiw) villains. This kind of lazy attitude to our actions on each street will result in not being able to beat the games.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 02:47:21 PM by Nit Tendencies » Logged

Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?
Nit Tendencies
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Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?


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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2013, 02:48:03 PM »

I knew I wouldn't be the only one and Sam grafton of all people to agree with me. I don't need anyone else to back this up now Smiley

Oh, and puke at this.
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Is this some kind of hilarious practical joke?
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