Is this bad etiquette?

[TightEnd]

Wow

Is it a full moon?


stepping away......

[Honeybadger]

If people who go to vegas and leave early are put off playing by these clever little moves (REALLY???) then i suggest poker is not the game for them.

But that's the whole point! We want poker to be a game that everyone can enjoy, not just certain people who are able to cope with/enjoy all the unsavoury stuff that certain players do. The vast majority of people would be put off by some of the stuff that happens at the poker table. I don't want poker to be a game that only certain people (like myself) can enjoy. I want everyone to be able to enjoy their poker whilst feeling comfortable at the tables.

As for these little tricks/ strokes/ moves harming the long term game.....LOL.... how long have people done this for and how long do we have to wait for the harm to be done to take effect.  Numbers dont seem too affected by it so far

I strongly believe that many thousands of potential new players have been put off poker due to the bad attitude and behaviour of a (substantial) minority of players. And I don't mean recently. This is something that has happened for many years, going back to before the poker boom.

Once upon a time poker (at least in this country) was very much a minority pursuit. Hardly anyone played the game, it had a seedy image, and was not seen as something that a 'normal person' would take up as a hobby. Part of the reason for this was due to the behaviour of many players at the table. I remember when I first started to play poker. Every night I played I would be at a table of scumbags - drug dealers, cheats, gangsters, loan sharks, thieves, psychos, thugs. Their behaviour was often terrible; rude, threatening, intimidating etc. Even the 'respected pros' tended to be unwelcoming and hostile, as well as pulling little strokes on me to exploit my naivety. Like Mantis, I actually got off on this. I didn't like these people, but I did kind of like the feeling of excitement and danger that came with gambling in this atmosphere. However, I would have been in a minority - the vast majority of 'normal people' would have found it a massive turn off to be playing in such an atmosphere, and to have been treated in such a way.

Then TV/Moneymaker/Online created a fairly substantial change in poker's image and led to an 'artificial' growth in poker's popularity. Suddenly it became almost fashionable, and many new players from all background/walks of life started to become interested in the game. Many potential new players were probably still turned off the game immediately by the crap they encountered, but there were so many new guys trying it out that enough of them stuck around to create a vibrant and healthy poker economy in the UK. Eventually, the old-school gangster types became massively outnumbered by the new breed of players, many of them fairly young. Poker had become almost mainstream. It had certainly become civilised.

The problem is that the poker boom is now over. And we are still in recession. The games are not what they once were. Five years ago it did not seem essential to ensure that players were not turned off poker, since there were so many new players entering the scene every day. This is no longer the case.

Another problem is that it turns out that some of the new breed of players display characteristics which are just as detrimental to the long-term health of poker as those displayed by the gangsters. Some of the things they do are actually exactly the same as the old-school idiots... after all, idiots are the same everywhere. Other things are unique to the new breed - for example, the new players tend not to threaten and intimidate, but they do ostracise their customers with their hoodies and headphones and five minute dwells.

I am all for characters at the table. I just think it is better if we have nice characters who are friendly, welcoming and classy.

[RED-DOG]

How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette?

Oxymorons ITT.

Douchey = Idiotic / stupid

Bad etiquette = Not nice / rude

EasilyconfusedTrying2Bsmart ITT

Its a bit pedantic of me, but I think most people will think they are one and the same

Yes it is pedantic and why would you assume on behalf of others that they also think they are one and the same when they are not. People being douchey could be acting a clown in a nice way, even in an entertaining way or certainly in a way that is not offending, some of the most fun people I know are douches and not rude or offending in the slightest, but I do appreciate you taking the time to try and point out that I might not be as clever as urself.

Douchey post imo.

[MANTIS01]

1. If you're invited to a fancy dress party and decide to go as Alan Titchmarsh that's pretty douchey, yet it isn't poor etiquette.

2. If you put up a business proposal in the month of May specifying that the deal is to be paid before you fly in the month of June why should you have to chase people around Vegas in the month of July?

[NEWY]

@ Honeybadger .. But we were talking about aaron faking to pass.. not the wild west of the past or I would agree with u. In every walk of life u will encounter good and bad people and as is the case in poker I belive the majority of people are good and certainly in a rec sense play for the right reasons and in the right manner. We will never live in a world where evryone can be kept happy so no point worrying about such a miniscule minority that are put off by these trivial nuances. Where do u draw the line. Should people be allowed to look fake sad or throw a fake smile should they not huff and puff when they are holding the nuts? If we really want to make the recs (of which I am 1) happy should we just state when they are beat and when they ask us if have hit our straight just tell them the truth?

@ Tighty Hooowwwwwllllllllll. I on my period.

@ Reddog I will assume u mean the good fun playful type of douchey and not tightends horrible nasty interpretation of douchey

[Tal]

Pipe down, wannabe pedants, with your wanton pedantry. We need to concentrate on the important stuff.

How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette?

Oxymorons ITT.

That isn't an oxymoron; at worst, it's a contradiction. Perhaps, at a squeeze, a paradox. If the terms aren't in conjunction, we have to find another way of linguistic pigeon fancying.

Fo shizzle.

[Honeybadger]

@ NEWY

You can draw the line wherever you want I guess. In my earlier posts in this thread all I said about the two incidents in question was that 'they are not especially terrible, but neither are they especially classy'. That's all I really think about them tbh. If people want to do that sort of thing then it is not a huge problem, not a massive deal. But I simply prefer not to ever do stuff like that and I gave my reasons why. It is just my personal philosophy, that's all. Others can act as they want.

[NEWY]

@ NEWY

You can draw the line wherever you want I guess. In my earlier posts in this thread all I said about the two incidents in question was that 'they are not especially terrible, but neither are they especially classy'. That's all I really think about them tbh. If people want to do that sort of thing then it is not a huge problem, not a massive deal. But I simply prefer not to ever do stuff like that and I gave my reasons why. It is just my personal philosophy, that's all. Others can act as they want.

I agree and hope I didn elude to anythin else. (in before its prob wrong use of elude)... Peace

[Karabiner]

Pipe down, wannabe pedants, with your wanton pedantry. We need to concentrate on the important stuff.

How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette?

Oxymorons ITT.

That isn't an oxymoron; at worst, it's a contradiction. Perhaps, at a squeeze, a paradox. If the terms aren't in conjunction, we have to find another way of linguistic pigeon fancying.

Fo shizzle.

I would suggest that it is an open secret that you have clearly misunderstood my exact estimate of this situation leading to a conspicuous absence of unbiased opinion although I'm pretty sure that you do have an unconscious awareness of my seriously funny side. This is doubtless old news though.

[SuuPRlim]

I know for sure that people have been put off playing in live poker games by the things mentioned ITT, and I know this because people have said, completely without influence from me "I am not going to play at X because of these little strokes, or bad table behavior" These are people i've known a long time and trust as well, So unless everyone is lying to me about everything then its kinda tough to disagree that it happens, just because it doesn't affect you.

1. If you're invited to a fancy dress party and decide to go as Alan Titchmarsh that's pretty douchey, yet it isn't poor etiquette.

Brilliant.

[Tal]

Pipe down, wannabe pedants, with your wanton pedantry. We need to concentrate on the important stuff.

How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette?

Oxymorons ITT.

That isn't an oxymoron; at worst, it's a contradiction. Perhaps, at a squeeze, a paradox. If the terms aren't in conjunction, we have to find another way of linguistic pigeon fancying.

Fo shizzle.

I would suggest that it is an open secret that you have clearly misunderstood my exact estimate of this situation leading to a conspicuous absence of unbiased opinion although I'm pretty sure that you do have an unconscious awareness of my seriously funny side. This is doubtless old news though.

Much better.

[MANTIS01]

Kinda think if everyone was the same, friendly, welcoming and classy it would be like an artist having only one colour on his palette. If you have a full spectrum of colours you can paint more interesting and appealing pictures.

A guy I've played with who people will know is Lawrence Gosney. This guy intimidated the feck out of me first time I played him and has prob put off many new players, yet what a fabulously interesting guy to have at the table. Friendly and welcoming? Nah, don't think so, but a great colour to have on the palette all the same. Btw aaron might be a troll but I like that colour too, he's got us all chatting right? And no Herbie is like having no blue, what the feck can you do with no blue.

[stato_1]

People need to be called out in public for this sort of thing in my opinion. If I seller did something equivalent he would get buried, why should buyers not get called out?

I have really tried not to comment on this as I didn't want to derail your staking thread but as you have brought it up here I think you behaved pretty appallingly in the way that you went about that whole thing.  Firstly, there were six days until you play the event.  Neither party has knocked/grimmed you they just haven't paid you yet and whilst you have every right to ask for payment two weeks in advance or whatever it was all parties are in Vegas and presumably fairly easy to track down.  The classy way to deal with it if you were genuinely worried about it would have been to go and find them and have a quiet word with them in person and tell them that you really want the money in advance (I am still not sure why you need it two weeks in advance tbh and giving someone thousands to sit in their pocket in Vegas doesn't seem a great idea to me and that is no reflection on you just a general point).  If they are then unable or unwilling to pay then just tell them you will open up the thread again.  To call them out in a public forum at this point in the process is unfair imo especially in a business that requires a bit of leeway on these things.  

I will give you an example.  I asked to buy a piece of a couple of players for the ISPT and then came to the UK for a couple of weeks and forgot my bank code thing so I couldn't ship.  I contacted them both and both agreed to let my piece stand and for me to just ship it to them after the event.  They didn't have to but I have had numerous transactions with both so presumably they figured that I was good for it which was nice but if they had just said okay I will sell it to someone else which happened in another spot that week that would have been fine too.  I would, however, have been extremely pissed off if they had wrote that I had welshed on my agreement or was unable to pay them or words to that effect especially if that led to Dubai coming on and saying how I owed him a monkey and haven't got around to paying him etc etc because your reputation if pretty much all you have in this game and it would really take a lot for me to put someone elses reputation in danger.  Of course it may be that there are issues with one or both parties but it is still a few days before the event and I just feel as though it could have been handled with so much more class.

Don't know anymore about the situation but it seems like Alex has done all the stuff you are suggesting. He has seen Flushy who didn't pay, and messaged both telling them their percentage would be cancelled if they didn't pay soon. Don't really see what else he could have done?

[aaron1867]

Not made a drama out of it.

Why mention $$$ given to keys horses? Obv trying to make him look bad

[cambridgealex]

People need to be called out in public for this sort of thing in my opinion. If I seller did something equivalent he would get buried, why should buyers not get called out?

I have really tried not to comment on this as I didn't want to derail your staking thread but as you have brought it up here I think you behaved pretty appallingly in the way that you went about that whole thing.  Firstly, there were six days until you play the event.  Neither party has knocked/grimmed you they just haven't paid you yet and whilst you have every right to ask for payment two weeks in advance or whatever it was all parties are in Vegas and presumably fairly easy to track down.  The classy way to deal with it if you were genuinely worried about it would have been to go and find them and have a quiet word with them in person and tell them that you really want the money in advance (I am still not sure why you need it two weeks in advance tbh and giving someone thousands to sit in their pocket in Vegas doesn't seem a great idea to me and that is no reflection on you just a general point).  If they are then unable or unwilling to pay then just tell them you will open up the thread again.  To call them out in a public forum at this point in the process is unfair imo especially in a business that requires a bit of leeway on these things.  

I will give you an example.  I asked to buy a piece of a couple of players for the ISPT and then came to the UK for a couple of weeks and forgot my bank code thing so I couldn't ship.  I contacted them both and both agreed to let my piece stand and for me to just ship it to them after the event.  They didn't have to but I have had numerous transactions with both so presumably they figured that I was good for it which was nice but if they had just said okay I will sell it to someone else which happened in another spot that week that would have been fine too.  I would, however, have been extremely pissed off if they had wrote that I had welshed on my agreement or was unable to pay them or words to that effect especially if that led to Dubai coming on and saying how I owed him a monkey and haven't got around to paying him etc etc because your reputation if pretty much all you have in this game and it would really take a lot for me to put someone elses reputation in danger.  Of course it may be that there are issues with one or both parties but it is still a few days before the event and I just feel as though it could have been handled with so much more class.

Don't know anymore about the situation but it seems like Alex has done all the stuff you are suggesting. He has seen Flushy who didn't pay, and messaged both telling them their percentage would be cancelled if they didn't pay soon. Don't really see what else he could have done?

Yeh I did all those things? Neither of them responded to messages about it, and when I asked flushy in person if he had the money he just said "no", not even a "not right now, I'll have it tomorrow/next week" or "actually do you mind if I pay a bit late". Just "no".

I didn't want to have to wait for a day before the event to sweat it out, then have to either look to raise ~$2k investment last minute or just risk being freerolled. I thought a week before the event was an appropriate amount of time to wait before looking for alternative backing.

Can't see anyway that your example relates to the situation at all since you have agreed something in private and both parties have come to an understanding and know the score in advance - the complete opposite of my situation.