Big Game- early stages with KK

[verndog158]

Its 4th level of the Big game at DTD, blinds 100/200/25. Have approx 22k so chipped up a little since the start, happy with the table so far, and do not recognize any of the players.

UTG+2 opens to 450. This guy had been opening a lot of pots, and had shown down the   and other similar hands a couple of times. We look down at   in the cut off, and make it 1425. Folds to BB (villian) who cold calls, playing around 30k, maybe a touch more. Original raiser folds.

Flop:  J 3 4 rainbow. Villian donks 1700. We flat.
Turn 8. Still rainbow. Villian 2600. We flat.
River 7. Villian leads 5100

We??
Thoughts on raising the flop/ turn??

[cambridgealex]

See you at the river

(call, call, call)

[BorntoBubble]

happy with call,call call happy with raising flop not folding though

[verndog158]

yeah dont mind call, call, call option as i feel he has a lot of jacks in his range here. Never folding the river?

[youthnkzR]

yeah dont mind call, call, call option as i feel he has a lot of jacks in his range here. Never folding the river?

Never without knowing lots about him. Just pay him off if he has a better hand which will be pretty rarely.

[muckthenuts]

I think i'd prefer raising flop

[TL900]

im jamming the river before im folding

[tight4better]

Call every street imo.

[SuuPRlim]

defo not a structure where you should be thinking about folding over-pairs too often

[verndog158]

Thanks for the help guys. As you can tell, i lost the hand, as he casually rolled over the 56os for the nuts, and said, 'i only called as youve been raising my blind a lot. Well played sir. Semi annoyed immediately after as you always think should i have been more aggressive earlier and possibly won the pot of the turn? Ah well, thanks for the advice, glad i seemed to have played it alright!! Well until Pleno posts anyway!! 

[Nit Tendencies]

I think you should raise the flop here, people just don't donk better than kings here that much. Now you've got to the river is just call. We can raise 3's, 4's but the Linsey draw has pinged in and a dirty back door straight too so not a good river to raise.

[pleno1]

I think you should raise the flop here, people just don't donk better than kings here that much. Now you've got to the river is just call. We can raise 3's, 4's but the Linsey draw has pinged in and a dirty back door straight too so not a good river to raise.

yeah absolutely agree that flop is a slam dunk raise, especially with history. on this board speficially wtf would he lead a set?

[cambridgealex]

I think people usually lead here to find out where they are, or to protect. So when you raise, sometimes they have "found out" and some people will fold a Jack face-up, sometimes people will have 66 and also fold, as well as some random bluffs or worse pairs.

Also, they might fold on the turn or river, especially if they are bad cards for your perceived range and their hand.

I think calling keeps them thinking they probably have the best hand, which is the crucial thing here imo. You can call 3 streets, bet turn and river big, raise the river on some runouts (e.g. board pairing or just general bricks, or sets for us obv), raise the turn if he bets really small (some people do this). Overall, I think calling will win you more chips long term.

[Rexas]

I think people usually lead here to find out where they are, or to protect. So when you raise, sometimes they have "found out" and some people will fold a Jack face-up, sometimes people will have 66 and also fold, as well as some random bluffs or worse pairs.

Also, they might fold on the turn or river, especially if they are bad cards for your perceived range and their hand.

I think calling keeps them thinking they probably have the best hand, which is the crucial thing here imo. You can call 3 streets, bet turn and river big, raise the river on some runouts (e.g. board pairing or just general bricks, or sets for us obv), raise the turn if he bets really small (some people do this). Overall, I think calling will win you more chips long term.

I definitely agree with alex here. By raising the flop we give the a guy a chance to fold a lot of hands, including his bluffs. Very rare to see a guy bluff donk and then just give up. By calling I would expect to get value from his bluffs for at least one more street, and from a J on potentially all three streets. Guy can pretty easily, imo, have like 10/10 or something similar, think there's only one over, so lets bet and hope he has AK and flats. Then he fires most turn cards that aren't an A, and we get two streets off an underpair, happy days. I think Pleno and Nit Tendencies are pretty spot on that he rarely donks this flop with a better hand than KK, so why do we want to give him a chance to fold any of these hands?

[muckthenuts]

I think people usually lead here to find out where they are, or to protect. So when you raise, sometimes they have "found out" and some people will fold a Jack face-up, sometimes people will have 66 and also fold, as well as some random bluffs or worse pairs.

Also, they might fold on the turn or river, especially if they are bad cards for your perceived range and their hand.

I think calling keeps them thinking they probably have the best hand, which is the crucial thing here imo. You can call 3 streets, bet turn and river big, raise the river on some runouts (e.g. board pairing or just general bricks, or sets for us obv), raise the turn if he bets really small (some people do this). Overall, I think calling will win you more chips long term.

I definitely agree with alex here. By raising the flop we give the a guy a chance to fold a lot of hands, including his bluffs. Very rare to see a guy bluff donk and then just give up. By calling I would expect to get value from his bluffs for at least one more street, and from a J on potentially all three streets. Guy can pretty easily, imo, have like 10/10 or something similar, think there's only one over, so lets bet and hope he has AK and flats. Then he fires most turn cards that aren't an A, and we get two streets off an underpair, happy days. I think Pleno and Nit Tendencies are pretty spot on that he rarely donks this flop with a better hand than KK, so why do we want to give him a chance to fold any of these hands?

I dunno about you but when i have AK and try to raise this board they hold onto top pair like their first born fkn child.