SCOOP final table spot vs British reg

[action man]

Who is villain?

[Pinchop73]

Mollie

[bergeroo]

yeah, villain is Martin Malone...

[bergeroo]

Results.

I bet 2.1m on the river. He shoved and I tank folded. On the replay I saw he had KK. In retrospect it is quite an easy fold to the shove but I was reluctant to let it go. Vs a different opponent or in a smaller tournament I might have bet/called. Maybe...

 I like my play until the river and there I'm still not sure if check call or bet fold is the best play. I'd probably lean towards bet fold, but bet a bit bigger. 3m.

[youthnkzR]

Fwiw I would lead turn here a lot for like 1.6m. Hes not gonna continue to bluff that much whereas he will check back QQ JJ 1010 / worse Kx a lot which may not bet but will call.

[bergeroo]

So you lead the turn and he calls and then v quick maths tell me there is about a pot sized bet on the river, so you check river with the plan to fold if he puts you all in? Check call any smaller bets on the river?

[youthnkzR]

I really didn't look at stacks sizes. Would go like 2m on turn and check/fold all rivers.Think it's hard for him to bluff river once we take this line and he's only gonna bet when we're beat

[bergeroo]

This seems a reasonable plan and reasoning with this hand in this spot. For value we are really only going to get one street realistically and we are trusting him to play quite straightforward and so we feel we can bet fold either the turn or as played, the river.

Do you think it is important to be balanced here? If so, what other types of hands would you be planning to take the check call flop and lead turn line? 99? AK? Any bluffs at all?

I really didn't look at stacks sizes. Would go like 2m on turn and check/fold all rivers.Think it's hard for him to bluff river once we take this line and he's only gonna bet when we're beat

[Honeybadger]

Don't understand the plethora of recommendations for weird out of tempo lines in PHA at the moment, such as c/c flop, donk turn in this hand.

So we have a bluff catcher on the flop, hence c/c. But on a turn that does nothing to improve our range we suddenly have a value hand, hence donk. Yet if villain were to call the turn donk we suddenly no longer have either a value hand nor a bluff catcher, hence c/f the river. Wtf?

[youthnkzR]

Fail to see how our had purely a bluff catcher on the flop when he can be betting a lot of worse hands for value

As for the rest, if your happy to check call 3 with KQ on this run out then than fair enough, because let's face it if we c/c c/c, our hand is too strong to fold river. But personally I don't really want to put more than two streets in with it so am happier taking a more unorthodox line. By leading we get him to put $ in with parts of his value range on the turn, we beat which may check back. These hands will never be turned into bluffs vs us on the river due to how polerizing our turn bet should appear to him. IMO he also peels Hands e.g. AQ to one single bet occasionally. I also expect him to check back AK occasionally and AA rarely on the river, due to the nature of our turn bet, however these hands would always bet et bet vs us check calling down So therefore once expect significantly better hands to put any money in on river.

Cliffs: we get to showdown for 2 streets of betting due to how polerizing our turn bet appears to him, rather then calling3 bets blindly.

[youthnkzR]

.

[Honeybadger]

I agree that KQ is not a pure bluff catcher on the flop. It is a 'top of the range' bluff catcher, in that it does beat some of the hands that villain will be betting for value/protection.

However, by c/c we are PLAYING it like a bluff catcher. Which is pretty much in keeping with the strength of both our actual hand and our range on this flop - i.e. we are unlikely to have AK/AA or sets due to preflop so the majority of our range is mid-strength. It should be villain that has the more polarised range here, not us (i.e. again due to preflop).

The thing is, since we want two streets of value from this hand then we are far better off checking the turn and then betting for value on the river if villain checks back. This is because when villain checks back our hand is a very, very clear value bet vs his range, whereas if we lead the turn we are doing so blind into an uncapped range. Of course, villain can check back some nutted stuff on the turn to trick us (as he in fact did here), but overall his range is much weaker once he has checked the turn rather than bet.

By donking the turn we strengthen villain's range to the extent that not only are we unable to value bet the river, but we also don't want to c/c the river (you said you'd fold on ANY river card). This sort of line (betting early streets for value/protection OOP then checking the river) is partly justifiable on wet boards since it gives you protection from draws, but even then it is a dangerous line to take since you are bloating a pot and then putting yourself in a tough decision on the river in a big pot. But in this hand there is no need to protect your hand, it is a WA/WB spot, so I just can't see why you'd want to donk turn then fold river rather than checking turn.

You say you are relying on the fact that your turn donk will seem polarised to villain so he will let you get to showdown easily on the river. I just can't see this myself. Maybe some villains will indeed think "oh he has 99 or a bluff", but I would have thought most villains will see this line for exactly what it is. And the reason for this is because so much of your range is mid-strength on the flop, and nothing has changed. So why should you suddenly be able to represent a polarised range? If I was villain and you led turn then checked river I certainly would not be checking back the river with AA or AK as you suggest he might do.

Cliffs: I like the way OP played the hand.

[youthnkzR]

You may not check back AA / AK but I'm pretty sure there would be a few nits who would be more likely to rather than if we took a std c/c down line. Wouldn't be folding on a king river!

The main part of my post was more that we get 2 streets from worse Kx / hands 10s through / maybe other pairs who may hero fold river to a bet vs a check/bet/call, check/check, bet - line, and get to showdown more as villain will be value betting a narrower range and bluffing really rarely due to him having showdown of some form after calling turn bet / and also us appearing more polerized to some villains - who will then be more inclined to check back. Therefore if we do face a bet we fold easily.