Road to being a pro

[redarmi]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

[SuuPRlim]

Me and all my friends in poker never really set out to be professional poker players, in fact I can't remember ever actually wanting to be a professional poker player or actually ever properly classifying myself as that.

Everyone just sort of fell into it if i recall...

Loving the game + Some good fortune early on + nothing really else to do = A taste for it and it just sort of went from there.

3 years ago, when i was enjoying a pretty sizable upswing, if someone had sat me down and informed me about what I would be doing to try make money from poker in 2014 I'd defo not have believed them...

"David, you know in 2014 to play a live poker game you want to play you're going to have to drive AT LEAST an hour, and you'll get the chance maybe 2 times a month"

"When you play online you'll be playing no higher than 5/10 and spend half your time being sat out on chasing games round the lobby"

I firmly believe there is plenty of money for up and coming pro gamblers to make but i'm 99% sure if it was me coming into it now I'd almost certainly not make a success of it (without far better fortune than I had, and I ran pretty good)

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Just on the subject of internet poker and cash game levels - something I've noticed this year. 5 years ago when I started online there was a real wall at the 5/10 stake. The buyin was now 4figures, the games were much more aggressive, the players just seemed better and getting past that level just felt so hard, if you did however you would usually push onto bigger and better things, get much better player and earn a ton of money.

I had endless failed shots at 5/10, more than i can count.

Didn't really matter though, i just went back to 2/4 and slowly made the money i'd lost back before having another go.

Nowadays though that same wall seems to be at 2/4, so failed shots at 2/4 now mean a trip back to 25c/50c where the rake is brutal and the games are very weak-tight. It's seriously very very hard. Sometimes I'm amazed on ipoker how tough the 2/4euro games can be...

Like i said, put me back where i was 5 yrs ago, now...I'd give myself a 5-10% chance of making it, if that.

[Dubai]

Teach him how to make the batter mix incase it all goes wrong lilDave

[tonytats]

Watching poker as was how I started !
 Looks great all exciting stuff ,then discovering playing on line in your pants from home and " earning a living "sounds all well  and good  but variance or delusion in my case is a hard reality to face /admit even after years of playing pontoon /3card brag down the pub
After running a small business for 30 years now I learnt
How to bluff -yeah yeah we can do that
How to raise -put the prices up
How to check - fk me this isn't working
Now try applying it to poker / gambling it's harder than it looks mate
When you win it's great
As I have an income already it's all gravy I.e holidays luxury items ,meals out in casinos great
When I lose it's back to work earn some more
If you don't have that income and you come home busto what then
I'd have been living in a bus shelter on the bypass
The one thing I've always enjoyed thro poker and gambling is the friends I've made and people I've met
But having a reliable income makes it much less stressful
If you have the chance to get qualifications personally I'd take it maybe get a part time job so you can still take the odd shot
But good luck whatever you deceide

[mondatoo]

I was going to start a thread asking how many people on here that have been successful gamblers would recommend getting into it or if they themselves would choose to do so again if they could wind the clock back. I decided against it as I've well documented my current negative issues so thought it would just seem like a current negative bias(not actually sure what decision I would come to if I sat and gave it a lot of thought). I believe there would be a majority from those who would be able to say they've been successful and yet would still choose not getting involved in gambling for a living and we can be pretty confident how those that have failed would sway, and we all know the ratio isn't pretty on success:failure in this industry.

GLGL with the degree KingPush, and the gambling.

[PaintingByNumbers]

Really? Think it's fairly standard to only 3bet/fold in all positions apart from bb and btn in online cash games now at least as default.

Would think the only flatting here is just an exploitation of the utg not having a balanced limping range, when this is un knowable, especially as people love sandbagging. Also the fact we can lead does not mean we have good position as if we get called we're still oop.

Sorry for bringing up a week old quote but have just spotted this diary.
Where do you get this opinion from?
I understand why flatting from the SB is problematic (tho not always wrong) but why would flatting a MP raise in the CO be fundamentally different from flatting it on the BTN?

You seem to be getting lots of advice, but still, may as well add mine:

Do go out and enjoy life.
DEFINITELY make sure you get your 2:2. Even if you once thought you would do better, you'll (likely) be more disappointed in the future if you don't put the effort in this year.
Don't obsess about your ranges. Just set a certain amount of time aside for study and tweaking. Being perfect is the enemy of being good.

[KingPush]

Cheers for all the advice everyone. I've only got two modules left of my degree so it's not poker or degree it's poker whilst I have nothing else to do whilst completing my degree. Whilst I do take your point about penny games I still thinbk they'll be useful practice to me in the short term. I have the bankroll to move up to .25/.50 dollar games and once I feel good enough I will do. This is not make 10k by December or sack it all off it's get as good as I can and learn as much as I can so I can make money from it in the future, whether that is part or full time.

Seems like lack of money is preventing you playing live where you think you are highly profitable - it's not a computer game, you don't need to complete every level- skipping some can be the best move in a lot of cases. They never used to have games smaller than 0.25-0.50$$ when I started playing and I didn't bother with that either. The flip side is obviously your poker education from going through the levels, but can't imagine you are learning too much playing puddings for pennies so id say missing some levels is fine. If you are a losing player at higher levels then obv reevaluate. Think you need a pretty aggressive bankroll strategy these days if you really want to come from micros to playing proper stuff. Or run better than 99.99% of your opponents

Ironically found 60 quid in my pocket from last time I played that I thought I'd lost. That plus getting my rb yesterday means I do have enough roll to play those games. Obviously get student loan in a few weeks as well which could be a useful boost.

May try and sat in to the 500 wpt event next month. Gonna start playing a few more 6max tournies and deeper ones as well as mtt fields seem super soft a lot of the time but obviously the edge is negated a bit when every one is on less than 20bbs after a few levels. Will do proper goals at the start of September.

[SuuPRlim]

Teach him how to make the batter mix incase it all goes wrong lilDave

Then I would have to kill him :-p

[AlunB]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

[SuuPRlim]

yeh have to agree my head does shake a little whenever anyone says to me "Oh you're a poker player, you should have been a stockbroker you'd have made £4.75m by now"

Do what makes you happy mate

[KingPush]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

yeh have to agree my head does shake a little whenever anyone says to me "Oh you're a poker player, you should have been a stockbroker you'd have made £4.75m by now"

Do what makes you happy mate

Yeah agree a lot. Think the argument of you could have earned x doing this is fairly flawed.

Gonna try and play 120 hours this month and study for 40.

[tikay]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

I'm quite sure you are right Alun, but like most worthwhile things, it's not supposed to be easy, is it?

[AlunB]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

I'm quite sure you are right Alun, but like most worthwhile things, it's not supposed to be easy, is it?

No. But I think people in work, and midway through their careers, often forget just how hard it is to get started. And how much luck is involved in that. And as far as I can make out it's even harder these days. That's not to say not to try, quite the opposite, but the idea you can walk into a good job with a degree these days is laughable.

This is a stat from a government report: Overall participation in higher education increased from 3.4% in 1950, to 8.4% in 1970, 19.3% in 1990 and 33% in 2000.

I think it's well over 40% in 2014

Interesting read here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21302065

[tikay]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

I'm quite sure you are right Alun, but like most worthwhile things, it's not supposed to be easy, is it?

No. But I think people in work, and midway through their careers, often forget just how hard it is to get started. And how much luck is involved in that. And as far as I can make out it's even harder these days. That's not to say not to try, quite the opposite, but the idea you can walk into a good job with a degree these days is laughable.

This is a stat from a government report: Overall participation in higher education increased from 3.4% in 1950, to 8.4% in 1970, 19.3% in 1990 and 33% in 2000.

I think it's well over 40% in 2014

Interesting read here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21302065

Think I left school in around 1962, & I only knew ONE person - a posh kid who lived on the hill in North Ealing - who went on to do Further Education. I can honestly say, I never knew a single person at the time who went to Uni.

The world is a very different place now, in so many ways.

Run good to get a job? Yes, I don't think that has changed much though. A whole string of lucky breaks conspired to get me my first job. It never occured to me at the time that it would, literally, shape my whole life. 

[redarmi]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is easy these days.  The point that i was making is that the amount of time and effort that most prospective professional poker players (and other gamblers) put it would get a better return in other industries with much less variance.  If, for example, I had spent 60 hours a week programming rather than studying form for the past 20 years then my upside would be the same or higher and my minimum income would be much higher too with significantly less variance.  Of course those arent the only things to consider.  I have had a blast doing what I do and there are other positive externalities such as ability to travel, not work in a corporate enviroment etc etc but they were much more important to me when I was younger than they are now when my number one priority is providing for my little one, paying the mortgage etc and given what I know now I am not sure if I would make the same choice again.