UK General Election 2015

[doubleup]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point. 
 

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

and they all have a marvelous sense of humour

[mulhuzz]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point. 
 

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

and they all have a marvelous sense of humour

that's a bold statement, what's the sigma look like

[arbboy]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point. 
 

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

[doubleup]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point. 
 

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

The debate is about immigration putting downward pressure on low skilled wages.  Are you suggesting this pressure is alleviated by low skilled British workers moving to eastern Europe?

[arbboy]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

The debate is about immigration putting downward pressure on low skilled wages.  Are you suggesting this pressure is alleviated by low skilled British workers moving to eastern Europe?

Why can't low skilled uk workers move around the EU to gain work if they have it so bad in this country?  If the cost of living crisis is killing them that badly take advantage of the EU and take a look at how green the grass is on the other side of the fence rather than sit and moan about the system.  Play it to your advantage.  They can move to any EU country.  Doesn't have to be Eastern Europe.  France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc.  I would imagine the vast majority of people in the uk would be too lazy to actually bother to learn the language and all the other barriers immigrants to this country face yet they still seem to be able to jump these hurdles.

You state low skilled uk workers can't take the labour elsewhere but highly paid workers can.  This is the point i am making.  I totally disagree with this.  Can you explain why hungry driven people in certain Eastern European countries on shocking wages without a benefits system to protect them seem to be able to find the drive to find work yet low skilled people in the uk don't quite seem so keen to put the same effort levels in?

[mulhuzz]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

as someone who isn't low paid or low skilled, but does work 'close ish' to Eastern Europe (in that Brits would think it is in Eastern Europea, on average, I think), I can only say.

protoze anglictina nemluvi cizimi jazyky a co te neni snadne se naucitem.*

*because English people don't in general speak foreign languages and it's hard to learn. (as a case in point, if Eso Kral's missus were to read that I'm sure she would confirm that this Brit in particular speaks no great level of either Czech or Slovak)

then there's a lot about living conditions etc etc - markedly better in UK than in other poorer European countries.

re your example of Germany - absolutely good luck moving there without having £5k you can spend to get started, similar in France etc etc. so you can rule those countries out. so then if you look at more central countries like CZ you still need easily £1500 disposable to get a house/registered/etc and then further east you won't find anything nearly as attractive in terms of living conditions, so why move? moving from eastern Europe is a pull, not push. They aren't getting pushed out of Romania/Bulgaria, they are getting pulled to UK. By definition that only works in one direction.

fwiw, only 37000 from Bulgaria and Romania in last year (ending sept 2014). Tell me more about these 129012910920192019228490375403275 who were certainly going to arrive on the same day the border opened.

[doubleup]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

The debate is about immigration putting downward pressure on low skilled wages.  Are you suggesting this pressure is alleviated by low skilled British workers moving to eastern Europe?

Why can't low skilled uk workers move around the EU to gain work if they have it so bad in this country?  If the cost of living crisis is killing them that badly take advantage of the EU and take a look at how green the grass is on the other side of the fence rather than sit and moan about the system.  Play it to your advantage.  They can move to any EU country.  Doesn't have to be Eastern Europe.  France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc.  I would imagine the vast majority of people in the uk would be too lazy to actually bother to learn the language and all the other barriers immigrants to this country face yet they still seem to be able to jump these hurdles.

You state low skilled uk workers can't take the labour elsewhere but highly paid workers can.  This is the point i am making.  I totally disagree with this.  Can you explain why hungry driven people in certain Eastern European countries on shocking wages without a benefits system to protect them seem to be able to find the drive to find work yet low skilled people in the uk don't quite seem so keen to put the same effort levels in?

Wat?

That's pretty much your silliest post ever.

[arbboy]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

as someone who isn't low paid or low skilled, but does work 'close ish' to Eastern Europe (in that Brits would think it is in Eastern Europea, on average, I think), I can only say.

protoze anglictina nemluvi cizimi jazyky a co te neni snadne se naucitem.*

*because English people don't in general speak foreign languages and it's hard to learn. (as a case in point, if Eso Kral's missus were to read that I'm sure she would confirm that this Brit in particular speaks no great level of either Czech or Slovak)

then there's a lot about living conditions etc etc - markedly better in UK than in other poorer European countries.

re your example of Germany - absolutely good luck moving there without having £5k you can spend to get started, similar in France etc etc. so you can rule those countries out. so then if you look at more central countries like CZ you still need easily £1500 disposable to get a house/registered/etc and then further east you won't find anything nearly as attractive in terms of living conditions, so why move? moving from eastern Europe is a pull, not push. They aren't getting pushed out of Romania/Bulgaria, they are getting pulled to UK. By definition that only works in one direction.

fwiw, only 37000 from Bulgaria and Romania in last year (ending sept 2014). Tell me more about these 129012910920192019228490375403275 who were certainly going to arrive on the same day the border opened.

So how do you rock up in England with a tenner in your back pocket and set up?  You make it sound like when people arrive in the uk from the EU they don't need a couple of grand to set themselves up.  What a redic argument to make.

[arbboy]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

The debate is about immigration putting downward pressure on low skilled wages.  Are you suggesting this pressure is alleviated by low skilled British workers moving to eastern Europe?

Why can't low skilled uk workers move around the EU to gain work if they have it so bad in this country?  If the cost of living crisis is killing them that badly take advantage of the EU and take a look at how green the grass is on the other side of the fence rather than sit and moan about the system.  Play it to your advantage.  They can move to any EU country.  Doesn't have to be Eastern Europe.  France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc.  I would imagine the vast majority of people in the uk would be too lazy to actually bother to learn the language and all the other barriers immigrants to this country face yet they still seem to be able to jump these hurdles.

You state low skilled uk workers can't take the labour elsewhere but highly paid workers can.  This is the point i am making.  I totally disagree with this.  Can you explain why hungry driven people in certain Eastern European countries on shocking wages without a benefits system to protect them seem to be able to find the drive to find work yet low skilled people in the uk don't quite seem so keen to put the same effort levels in?

Wat?

That's pretty much your silliest post ever.

Care to expand rather than just make that statement.   I don't see anything remotely 'silly' i have stated there.  I am talking as someone who has lived and worked in numerous countries around the world, both inside and outside of the EU, over the past 10 years and have worked alongside hundreds of people on relatively low wages who don't seem to have any problem moving around the world to make a living.

[doubleup]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

The debate is about immigration putting downward pressure on low skilled wages.  Are you suggesting this pressure is alleviated by low skilled British workers moving to eastern Europe?

Why can't low skilled uk workers move around the EU to gain work if they have it so bad in this country?  If the cost of living crisis is killing them that badly take advantage of the EU and take a look at how green the grass is on the other side of the fence rather than sit and moan about the system.  Play it to your advantage.  They can move to any EU country.  Doesn't have to be Eastern Europe.  France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc.  I would imagine the vast majority of people in the uk would be too lazy to actually bother to learn the language and all the other barriers immigrants to this country face yet they still seem to be able to jump these hurdles.

You state low skilled uk workers can't take the labour elsewhere but highly paid workers can.  This is the point i am making.  I totally disagree with this.  Can you explain why hungry driven people in certain Eastern European countries on shocking wages without a benefits system to protect them seem to be able to find the drive to find work yet low skilled people in the uk don't quite seem so keen to put the same effort levels in?

Wat?

That's pretty much your silliest post ever.

Care to expand rather than just make that statement.   I don't see anything remotely 'silly' i have stated there.  I am talking as someone who has lived and worked in numerous countries around the world, both inside and outside of the EU, over the past 10 years.

This sub-debate is about whether low skilled living standards have fallen and whether immigration causes a downward pressure on low skilled wages. 

You have just ranted on about people getting on a bus and other people being lazy.

[mulhuzz]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

as someone who isn't low paid or low skilled, but does work 'close ish' to Eastern Europe (in that Brits would think it is in Eastern Europea, on average, I think), I can only say.

protoze anglictina nemluvi cizimi jazyky a co te neni snadne se naucitem.*

*because English people don't in general speak foreign languages and it's hard to learn. (as a case in point, if Eso Kral's missus were to read that I'm sure she would confirm that this Brit in particular speaks no great level of either Czech or Slovak)

then there's a lot about living conditions etc etc - markedly better in UK than in other poorer European countries.

re your example of Germany - absolutely good luck moving there without having £5k you can spend to get started, similar in France etc etc. so you can rule those countries out. so then if you look at more central countries like CZ you still need easily £1500 disposable to get a house/registered/etc and then further east you won't find anything nearly as attractive in terms of living conditions, so why move? moving from eastern Europe is a pull, not push. They aren't getting pushed out of Romania/Bulgaria, they are getting pulled to UK. By definition that only works in one direction.

fwiw, only 37000 from Bulgaria and Romania in last year (ending sept 2014). Tell me more about these 129012910920192019228490375403275 who were certainly going to arrive on the same day the border opened.

So how do you rock up in England with a tenner in your back pocket and set up?  You make it sound like when people arrive in the uk from the EU they don't need a couple of grand to set themselves up.  What a redic argument to make.

because there are support networks available - family/friends/etc. that's a consequence of the scale of immigration -- just like I could move to spain or Germany tomorrow with not a penny to my name because I'd have a support netowkr there, but i'd fine it a lot more difficult to move to, say, Italy on the same basis.

Remember as well that there's a greater willingness to put up with some 'not so great conditions' as an immigrant to the UK because of a perceived 'chance of a better life' -- I don't think that perception exists (and probably rightly so) in the other direction.

Find it pretty funny that you've in general switched from 'make your skill set better' (ermm...there's not a lot of social mobility) to 'make your country different' (erm, there's no geographic mobility).

I don't think we'll ever agree on this because - and I could well be wrong so apologies if I am - you don't seem like you've ever been potless with no support network and therefore imagine it's way easier than it actually is to change your circumstances from that position.

[arbboy]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

The debate is about immigration putting downward pressure on low skilled wages.  Are you suggesting this pressure is alleviated by low skilled British workers moving to eastern Europe?

Why can't low skilled uk workers move around the EU to gain work if they have it so bad in this country?  If the cost of living crisis is killing them that badly take advantage of the EU and take a look at how green the grass is on the other side of the fence rather than sit and moan about the system.  Play it to your advantage.  They can move to any EU country.  Doesn't have to be Eastern Europe.  France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc.  I would imagine the vast majority of people in the uk would be too lazy to actually bother to learn the language and all the other barriers immigrants to this country face yet they still seem to be able to jump these hurdles.

You state low skilled uk workers can't take the labour elsewhere but highly paid workers can.  This is the point i am making.  I totally disagree with this.  Can you explain why hungry driven people in certain Eastern European countries on shocking wages without a benefits system to protect them seem to be able to find the drive to find work yet low skilled people in the uk don't quite seem so keen to put the same effort levels in?

Wat?

That's pretty much your silliest post ever.

Care to expand rather than just make that statement.   I don't see anything remotely 'silly' i have stated there.  I am talking as someone who has lived and worked in numerous countries around the world, both inside and outside of the EU, over the past 10 years.

This sub-debate is about whether low skilled living standards have fallen and whether immigration causes a downward pressure on low skilled wages. 

You have just ranted on about people getting on a bus and other people being lazy.

I appreciate that but it would suggest to me that low skilled living standards in this country are still far superior to those in other countries otherwise low skilled people in the uk would vote with their feet and move/work elsewhere in the EU.  People in the UK have no idea how good they have got it.  This cost of living crisis is all hot air relatively.  Sure people have had to take cuts in their standard of living at all levels.  Everyone around Europe is having to cut back and i would suggest the cut in living standards for unskilled workers in teh uk is nowhere near as severe as in many other major European countries.  What other explanation is there for why unskilled labour always stays in the UK like you say and never seeks to work elsewhere?

[arbboy]

The UK's economic growth has also surpassed France, Germany and Belgium since then, so the end point is also very convenient for your point.  
  

not per capita gdp which is the relevant issue when we are discussing incomes.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/belgium/gdp-per-capita

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-per-capita

Germany's is much higher than pre-crisis and the uk's has recovered less than Belgium's.

The UK GDP recovery has been entirely caused by more people producing less.

The working population has increased by immigration.  As even skilled immigrants can do low-skilled jobs, it is the low skilled labour supply that is increased the greatest, with obviously the skilled sector impacted but to a lesser extent.  (I don't hear many actuaries saying "they're coming over here and calculating our standard deviations").

I don't know why you personalise stuff, but the Actuarial Profession is pretty multinational.  No idea on the stats, but I would be very surprised if the proportion of new actuaries born overseas is below the national average.

You don't here them complaining about people coming over here, stealing their jobs, because most of them aren't blithering idiots.

his point, obviously to anyone certainly including you, was that there is a difference between low skilled labour and highly skilled labour. Also because actuaries are very very likely to have a high degree of social/geo mobility (I'm sure you have a model for it...) then no, they don't complain about people stealing their jobs, because they can simply take their labour elsewere. Something not exactly always the case for those in the low paid/low skill group.

People in Eastern Europe who are totally potless seem to find it easy enough to jump on a bus to start a new life over a thousand miles away in England.  Why is it so hard for low paid/skilled UK people do to the same?  Maybe just a lack of drive and effort on their behalf?  Just a thought.

as someone who isn't low paid or low skilled, but does work 'close ish' to Eastern Europe (in that Brits would think it is in Eastern Europea, on average, I think), I can only say.

protoze anglictina nemluvi cizimi jazyky a co te neni snadne se naucitem.*

*because English people don't in general speak foreign languages and it's hard to learn. (as a case in point, if Eso Kral's missus were to read that I'm sure she would confirm that this Brit in particular speaks no great level of either Czech or Slovak)

then there's a lot about living conditions etc etc - markedly better in UK than in other poorer European countries.

re your example of Germany - absolutely good luck moving there without having £5k you can spend to get started, similar in France etc etc. so you can rule those countries out. so then if you look at more central countries like CZ you still need easily £1500 disposable to get a house/registered/etc and then further east you won't find anything nearly as attractive in terms of living conditions, so why move? moving from eastern Europe is a pull, not push. They aren't getting pushed out of Romania/Bulgaria, they are getting pulled to UK. By definition that only works in one direction.

fwiw, only 37000 from Bulgaria and Romania in last year (ending sept 2014). Tell me more about these 129012910920192019228490375403275 who were certainly going to arrive on the same day the border opened.

So how do you rock up in England with a tenner in your back pocket and set up?  You make it sound like when people arrive in the uk from the EU they don't need a couple of grand to set themselves up.  What a redic argument to make.

because there are support networks available - family/friends/etc. that's a consequence of the scale of immigration -- just like I could move to spain or Germany tomorrow with not a penny to my name because I'd have a support netowkr there, but i'd fine it a lot more difficult to move to, say, Italy on the same basis.

Remember as well that there's a greater willingness to put up with some 'not so great conditions' as an immigrant to the UK because of a perceived 'chance of a better life' -- I don't think that perception exists (and probably rightly so) in the other direction.

Find it pretty funny that you've in general switched from 'make your skill set better' (ermm...there's not a lot of social mobility) to 'make your country different' (erm, there's no geographic mobility).

I don't think we'll ever agree on this because - and I could well be wrong so apologies if I am - you don't seem like you've ever been potless with no support network and therefore imagine it's way easier than it actually is to change your circumstances from that position.

I have said before on other posts that my entire family was wiped out employment wise in the early 80s when thatcher decided to close down the local steel works in Corby where i grew up.  The town had incredible levels of unemployment and it was effectively a ghost town for years.  The whole family/town was struggling for years but we didn't moan about it and cracked on, got our heads down and grafted our tits off to get back on our feet.  Similar to the town itself.  I have no priviledges in the slightest in my family.  I was the first person on either side of my family to go to university from a totally proper working class background.  I struggled massively financially throughout university working 60/80 hour weeks during the holidays to fund it without moaning in proper shit minimum wage jobs.  I grew up in the Thatcher era where there was aspiration if you were willing to work hard enough in life you got the rewards which is why i have the views i have even though my entire family were massive labour supporters who now vote tory because they realise only the tory party really stands for hard working people.

There is far too much excuse making in this country and if you have grafted your way through life like i have for 25 years you might understand where i am coming from.  I have moved jobs several times to move aboard to out of the way locations to better myself and this in turn has massive personal sacrifices.  

Yes i am not potless now ( i am not loaded either) but please don't make out i have got where i have through anything other than hard work and sacrifice throughout my early years for myself and my family.  I don't want any pats on the back but equally i don't like people assuming i have been gifted an easy lifestyle because of where i am now.  I spent 25 years getting to the point where i am now from nothing.

[mulhuzz]

then I apologise. I guess in some respects we're actually similar (country number 4 outside of UK now) but maybe you have some survival bias

edit: what I mean is that hard work and graft and sacrifice are things I can comprehend. But I just don't always think they are sufficient. If you run well, they will be though.

[arbboy]

then I apologise. I guess in some respects we're actually similar (country number 4 outside of UK now) but maybe you have some survival bias

edit: what I mean is that hard work and graft and sacrifice are things I can comprehend. But I just don't always think they are sufficient. If you run well, they will be though.

The harder you work the luckier you get and the more likely you are to survive.  I know it isn't easy surviving by blaming others and making excuses why your lot is so shit.  No one's lot in 2015 was anywhere near as tough as the early 80s in Corby believe me.  People have it so good nowadays they really need to take a reality check at times with their moans.  Try doing 2 12 hour shifts in a brutal steel works with only 8 hours rest in between like both my grandad's did for 25 years after fighting for this country in the 2nd World war and then to suddenly be told your job was gone after 25 years because Maggie was closing down the Steel works and appreciate how tough a life they had to put this moaning benefit street generation in their relative life of riley. Did they sit on their arse and moan like fuck about how unlucky they were in life.  No they moved on and got on with life and kept grafting to give their sons and grandson's the best possible chance in life.  Which i have always appreciated and keeps me driven to this day.

 It makes me sick thinking about the modern generation at times.

Rant over.  Back to betfair.  Ciao.