Ched Evans

[The Camel]

We talked about this weeks ago Camel.  We agreed it's possible (likely?) that Evans at the time thought he had consent from the victim.  Subsequently the court found that she was incapable of giving consent in the situation so he was guilty of rape.

Evans in his footballer arrogance thinks he has consent to have sex with a girl.  He didn't and the result is that a girl was raped.
McCormick thinks he can drive home drunk without incident.  He couldn't and the result is that two children are dead.

It will vary person to person, but personally given the situations I think McCormick's crime is worse (as reflected in his sentence).  Your passing off of McCormick's crime as a tragic accident troubles me

The only reason to send LM to prison for so long was as a deterrent to others not to drink drive.

He is not a danger to society and there's no chance he re offends.

I think a better deterrent would be to jail all drink drivers for 3 months - that would wipe out the crime at a stroke.

[DungBeetle]

How do you know he won't reoffend?  Because he told the newspaper he was sorry?  Because he waited a year to send a letter to the parents?

"We've had a letter from Luke. It is private, but he has shown remorse and that has helped us.  We have been asking for a letter from him for a long time, pretty much since the court case finished, and I felt he didn't show much remorse.

But hey ho - he's said what needed to be said in the newspaper to complete his rehabilitation so lets welcome him back into football with open arms.  

[DMorgan]

But when all is said and done, it was an accident.

Isn't an 'accident' by definition something for which neither party can be reasonable found to be negligent?

[horseplayer]

How do you know he won't reoffend?  Because he told the newspaper he was sorry?  Because he waited a year to send a letter to the parents?

"We've had a letter from Luke. It is private, but he has shown remorse and that has helped us.  We have been asking for a letter from him for a long time, pretty much since the court case finished, and I felt he didn't show much remorse.

But hey ho - he's said what needed to be said in the newspaper to complete his rehabilitation so lets welcome him back into football with open arms.  

I would strongly disagree that Luke showed remorse he came under massive pressure at the time and basically sent a letter after repeated requests from the parents

[bobby1]

I went to the third game Luke McCormick played after he killed two children. A murmur no more...

Charlie Webster the same lady that was very happy to have a picture, excited in fact to have a selfie with Mike Tyson a few years ago?

I saw her previously say that she made a mistake there.   She shouldn't have a view because she made a small mistake in the past?  I don't see this on a par with what Ched did and not sure why people find it relevant.

I heard Nigel Clough saying that they wanted to concentrate on the 4 games in 10 days yesterday.  It struck me that the 4 games in 10 days was something you should have considered before taking Ched Evans back in training.

I do think he really needs to resolve this issue before coming back into football.   I think he should concentrate on the outstanding appeal first.  If he is found innocent, people will have to accept that and move on, if he is found guilty again he has to accept that and show a bit more contrition.  Where we are seems very unsatisfactory for all parties.  

I really think that last paragraph sums up my thoughts too. All these people steadfastly refusing to accept there is a possibility he was wrongly convicted are going to have some egg on their faces if it turns out he was wrongly convicted. If he loses his appeal then it has to be the end of it and he is without doubt a rapist and needs to show some remorse and apologise.

Just back to the original point of the thread and touching on the Charlie Webster point, again we have someone else( and I accept she is personally affected by this incident far more than a huge majority of the other people filling in newspaper columns and getting TV time) going on TV/radio/newspapers to give their opinion on Evans. I saw a piece from Nick Clegg again yesterday talking about role models etc and there is still a really uneasy feeling sitting with me that these people are still using this case to get themselves some media time.

I think three patrons have resigned from Sheff Utd, why does Webster have to go on a TV news show and announce it through the media? She is using the things she feels strongly enough about to resign to do interviews instead of just resigning.

Without being rude to her it makes not one ounce of difference to the club if she resigns, I had forgotten she was even a patron and how many people can name their own clubs patrons or a handful of other clubs patrons.

That should really be a non story (as it is with the other 2 that have resigned) if she doesn't take the doing it thru media route imo, yet she has found a way on to Newsnight on the back of a footballer raping a girl.

[horseplayer]

"I saw her previously say that she made a mistake there.   She shouldn't have a view because she made a small mistake in the past?  I don't see this on a par with what Ched did and not sure why people find it relevant."

Errrr hold on a bit where did i compare her having a picture with Tyson to raping someone?

I find it relevant as Bobby says she seems to have somehow become a bigger "personality" out of all of this, the fact she deleted the original tweet suggests to me she is well aware of what she is doing.

[bobby1]

I like Webster a lot and she did present her thoughts really well in that interview but let me ask this.

If it is decided that Evans should never have been found guilty of rape and has spent 2 1/2 years in prison on a miscarriage of justice who will have done the most harm to victims of rape, Evans for being wrongly convicted or Webster for happily posing and expressing delight at having her picture taken with a rapist that got 6 years?

[Doobs]

I like Webster a lot and she did present her thoughts really well in that interview but let me ask this.

If it is decided that Evans should never have been found guilty of rape and has spent 2 1/2 years in prison on a miscarriage of justice who will have done the most harm to victims of rape, Evans for being wrongly convicted or Webster for happily posing and expressing delight at having her picture taken with a rapist that got 6 years?

As far as I know she didn't pose with Tyson, she posted that she missed the opportunity. 

If anybody thinks that she was aware that he was a convicted rapist at the time she made the tweet seems to be making a leap way too far to me.  They don't carry signs and she is a lot younger than us.  Even though I am aware of tyson's history, I can't say I would have remembered it without this memory jog.

How many people here know of Floyd Mayweather's domestic violence history before priniting photos of him posing with some huge sum of money or with a big betting Receipt?  I expect many wouldn't make the posts if they knew.  It just isn't the first thing most will think of if they saw him in a hotel lobby.

[bobby1]

I like Webster a lot and she did present her thoughts really well in that interview but let me ask this.

If it is decided that Evans should never have been found guilty of rape and has spent 2 1/2 years in prison on a miscarriage of justice who will have done the most harm to victims of rape, Evans for being wrongly convicted or Webster for happily posing and expressing delight at having her picture taken with a rapist that got 6 years?

As far as I know she didn't pose with Tyson, she posted that she missed the opportunity. 

If anybody thinks that she was aware that he was a convicted rapist at the time she made the tweet seems to be making a leap way too far to me.  They don't carry signs and she is a lot younger than us.  Even though I am aware of tyson's history, I can't say I would have remembered it without this memory jog.

How many people here know of Floyd Mayweather's domestic violence history before priniting photos of him posing with some huge sum of money or with a big betting Receipt?  I expect many wouldn't make the posts if they knew.  It just isn't the first thing most will think of if they saw him in a hotel lobby.

Sure that's certainly possible but she didn't say any of that afterwards which in all probability she would have done if it was the case. My point really is she has seemingly chosen to use her thoughts on this case to her own benefit, she announced two weeks ago ffs that she would resign if Evans was taken back. She could have done all of that in private if she was simply using her position as patron to lobby the powers that be at Sheff Utd.

If Evans is pardoned and has served 2 1/2 years he shouldn't have served, will Newsnight ask him on to talk about Charlie Webster fighting for victims of sex crimes yet happy to have her pic taken with a rapist?

Will radio Sheffield ask him on twice in a month to give his views on how Nick Clegg as the deputy PM should be a role model to people in this country instead of one of the biggest political liars we have ever voted in?

What does it say to the kids of today that just saying whatever you want to make you popular and then failing to fulfill those promises when you have got to a position of power?

That's why I agree with you that we should really just wait to see what the appeal decides, we then know 100% that he is a rapist or 100% that he is a victim of a miscarriage of justice but as it stands it feels like he is being used by people to curry favour through the media.

[RickBFA]

Jess Ennis issued a statement saying she wants her name taking off the "Jessica Ennis" stand if they give Evans a contract.

Her statement makes it clear she feels that she has a responsibility to act as a role model as a public figure.

There's no doubt that with the enormous rewards comes responsibility, this seems to be lost on some people.

Sheff Utd will be scoring a massive PR and marketing own goal by signing him.

They have lost patrons, will lose sponsors and public figures like Ennis.

Not the smartest move for a community based football club.

I get the impression that McCabe wants to sign him but the Saudi co-owners aren't keen. This may be wrong but if its true its perhaps a sign of McCabe's desire to clawback some of the £30-40m he's effectively lost by bankrolling SUFC historically.

[Doobs]

I like Webster a lot and she did present her thoughts really well in that interview but let me ask this.

If it is decided that Evans should never have been found guilty of rape and has spent 2 1/2 years in prison on a miscarriage of justice who will have done the most harm to victims of rape, Evans for being wrongly convicted or Webster for happily posing and expressing delight at having her picture taken with a rapist that got 6 years?

As far as I know she didn't pose with Tyson, she posted that she missed the opportunity. 

If anybody thinks that she was aware that he was a convicted rapist at the time she made the tweet seems to be making a leap way too far to me.  They don't carry signs and she is a lot younger than us.  Even though I am aware of tyson's history, I can't say I would have remembered it without this memory jog.

How many people here know of Floyd Mayweather's domestic violence history before priniting photos of him posing with some huge sum of money or with a big betting Receipt?  I expect many wouldn't make the posts if they knew.  It just isn't the first thing most will think of if they saw him in a hotel lobby.

Sure that's certainly possible but she didn't say any of that afterwards which in all probability she would have done if it was the case. My point really is she has seemingly chosen to use her thoughts on this case to her own benefit, she announced two weeks ago ffs that she would resign if Evans was taken back. She could have done all of that in private if she was simply using her position as patron to lobby the powers that be at Sheff Utd.

If Evans is pardoned and has served 2 1/2 years he shouldn't have served, will Newsnight ask him on to talk about Charlie Webster fighting for victims of sex crimes yet happy to have her pic taken with a rapist?

Will radio Sheffield ask him on twice in a month to give his views on how Nick Clegg as the deputy PM should be a role model to people in this country instead of one of the biggest political liars we have ever voted in?

What does it say to the kids of today that just saying whatever you want to make you popular and then failing to fulfill those promises when you have got to a position of power?

That's why I agree with you that we should really just wait to see what the appeal decides, we then know 100% that he is a rapist or 100% that he is a victim of a miscarriage of justice but as it stands it feels like he is being used by people to curry favour through the media.

I don't really feel like we disagree much here. 

I can't say I understand women fully, but if I said to my wife get your photo taken with ex-world champion boxer, Mike Tyson, I think she would respond much as Charlie Webster did in the tweet.  If I said to her, by the way he was found guilty of rape and served 6 years, I just think there is no chance she would respond like that.  She'd tell me to GTFO pretty sharpish.  I know all women are different and all, but just think most would respond like my wife.  So when people say she is a hypocrite, I just assume she can't have been aware of his history or had forgotten it.  The vilification of her feels a bit close to that of the victim for my liking.

Anyway as I said further up, I think there is enough doubt that he should be allowed to appeal and I also think he should be allowed to play if he served his time and shows some remorse.  I do think it us best if he steps away until the appeal is resolved.  I'd have to try and respect any decision the court makes, but as I said earlier, he has done something wrong whatever you describe it as.

Would be pretty difficult to cheer him on if he shows up at Valley Parade afterwards and to explain it to my daughter whatever the result.  Then again I have cheered some right wrong uns there before.

[ripple11]

Agree its best if everyone waits now.
 Odds aren't generally good on it being referred back it seems....however if it is...the chances of success are good.

CCRC has referred for appeal 3.43%, or one in every 29, of the applications considered. Of the cases referred by the CCRC to the appeal courts, approximately 70% have succeed at appeal.

[redarmi]

It isn't really about Evans anymore I don't think.  You can't reasonably or legally prevent him from working in whatever capacity but that puts the onus onto the clubs and when they sign a player they are effectively saying they think it is acceptable for that person to be put up as a role model to their community.  If my two year old daughter for some reason decided to become a blade when she was 6 or 7 it would make me incredibly sick to see her cheering a convicted rapist but it would have been Sheffield Utd that were responsible for that situation effectively because they still have a choice to make.

[DropTheHammer]

Sheff Utd will be scoring a massive PR and marketing own goal by signing him.

They won't sign him. Some smaller team will come along and grab a bargain though, they always do.

[DropTheHammer]

How many people here know of Floyd Mayweather's domestic violence history before priniting photos of him posing with some huge sum of money or with a big betting Receipt?  I expect many wouldn't make the posts if they knew.  It just isn't the first thing most will think of if they saw him in a hotel lobby.

Domestic violence is the first thing I think about when I hear Stan Collymore's stupid loud voice on the radio, then quickly turn off TalkSport as I want nothing doing with wife-beating scum like that!