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Author Topic: Live hand  (Read 3706 times)
david3103
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2014, 10:23:02 AM »

The trouble with r/c pre is that all too often we still find ourselves in the same spot we're in here.

Especially true live. We get flatted pre by so many hands that 'should' have either folded or jammed and are left to guess/fold on the majority of flops when we're donked into.
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2014, 10:44:23 AM »

Shoving keeps things simple and is profitable I agree. I would shove from every position apart from possibly the cutoff/button/small blind. If your uncomfortable making decisions on flops then this is a good route to take even in those positions. I think flop play with this hand and situation would be simple enough once we are comfortable enough making assumptions on our opponents ranges, this is largely just practice and knowing your opponent/having experience to draw upon. Each time you have to see a flop with 11 big blinds back and 4.5-5.5 in with one opponent with the betting lead and in position just accept you are making money/have already made a bunch of money and go from there. Forcing yourself out of your comfort zone will help you improve as a player. I feel like I have a significant advantage in certain spots/stack sizes, where I have taken an unusual line before or just have  a lot of experience, ie limping buttons with 30bb which gives me an edge. Think of raise/calling here as the crosscourt backhand finisher in tennis, its pretty important if your a pro but not really needed if your having some fun in the park. 

The hand from OP is a prime example, we would have a relatively tough spot if c/r'd, things are awkward, but our opponent has let us off by allowing us to make an easy fold. I think this example should ease our concerns about raise/calling, our opponent presumably flopped well and let us off cheap. Lets play some poker. It might feel unclean to cbet 1.65bb and fold or check/fold having put in a fifth of our stack but sometimes these things happen.
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willrobrobu
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2014, 11:32:49 AM »

a couple of people have said you wont see any folds when you re-raise all in on this flop. i think this is completely untrue and have seen many donkbets v shortstack fold to reraise. i presume in these instances they absolutely whiff the flop and rather than check/folding prefer to have a stab vs a perceived tight player. i'm not advocating the reraise in this instance but i think you need to include a small number of bluffs in oppos range when calculating yr equity here
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ActionDanS
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2014, 11:48:27 AM »

Shoving keeps things simple and is profitable I agree. I would shove from every position apart from possibly the cutoff/button/small blind. If your uncomfortable making decisions on flops then this is a good route to take even in those positions. I think flop play with this hand and situation would be simple enough once we are comfortable enough making assumptions on our opponents ranges, this is largely just practice and knowing your opponent/having experience to draw upon. Each time you have to see a flop with 11 big blinds back and 4.5-5.5 in with one opponent with the betting lead and in position just accept you are making money/have already made a bunch of money and go from there. Forcing yourself out of your comfort zone will help you improve as a player. I feel like I have a significant advantage in certain spots/stack sizes, where I have taken an unusual line before or just have  a lot of experience, ie limping buttons with 30bb which gives me an edge. Think of raise/calling here as the crosscourt backhand finisher in tennis, its pretty important if your a pro but not really needed if your having some fun in the park. 

The hand from OP is a prime example, we would have a relatively tough spot if c/r'd, things are awkward, but our opponent has let us off by allowing us to make an easy fold. I think this example should ease our concerns about raise/calling, our opponent presumably flopped well and let us off cheap. Lets play some poker. It might feel unclean to cbet 1.65bb and fold or check/fold having put in a fifth of our stack but sometimes these things happen.

This is a much better way of phrasing what I was saying. Smiley

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cambridgealex
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2014, 12:03:23 PM »

Very blind dependant whether I'm shoving or raising the btn. If it was a FT I think if be shoving.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2014, 01:58:19 PM »

Good stuff Adam.
No antes right?  Makes shoving less fun
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Sulphur man
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2014, 09:35:08 PM »

this is a shove
Hey pleno in a vacuum I would agree without doubt and math wise it's also going to be profitable.
We make no mention of our image in the op though. It is fair to say that deep in a live comp we will have built up
an image or even at worst we will have a set image. For instance young/old regular/inexperienced.

As Alex alludes to this alone is vital and important information with our decision here. And there is very little information
on stack sizes and opponents behind us and a host of other factors. I mean are we near the bubble(you know I love ICM).

Once these things are answered we can get a more decisive answer rather than "This is a shove" which while no doubt
correct is probably not that helpful to a new player.

And I think a min can be a good option as long as our post flop play is good. Go and go unless its donked is an option
especially for a skilled player as live players put far to much emphasis on survival. But shoving takes away any potential postflop
problems that could be leaks in certain games.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2014, 09:56:46 PM »

Shoving keeps things simple and is profitable I agree. I would shove from every position apart from possibly the cutoff/button/small blind. If your uncomfortable making decisions on flops then this is a good route to take even in those positions. I think flop play with this hand and situation would be simple enough once we are comfortable enough making assumptions on our opponents ranges, this is largely just practice and knowing your opponent/having experience to draw upon. Each time you have to see a flop with 11 big blinds back and 4.5-5.5 in with one opponent with the betting lead and in position just accept you are making money/have already made a bunch of money and go from there. Forcing yourself out of your comfort zone will help you improve as a player. I feel like I have a significant advantage in certain spots/stack sizes, where I have taken an unusual line before or just have  a lot of experience, ie limping buttons with 30bb which gives me an edge. Think of raise/calling here as the crosscourt backhand finisher in tennis, its pretty important if your a pro but not really needed if your having some fun in the park. 

The hand from OP is a prime example, we would have a relatively tough spot if c/r'd, things are awkward, but our opponent has let us off by allowing us to make an easy fold. I think this example should ease our concerns about raise/calling, our opponent presumably flopped well and let us off cheap. Lets play some poker. It might feel unclean to cbet 1.65bb and fold or check/fold having put in a fifth of our stack but sometimes these things happen.

I really like the way you have explained things in this post Adam. I even had a little Ah-Ha moment about something you said Smiley
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Sulphur man
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2014, 09:59:00 PM »

Shoving keeps things simple and is profitable I agree. I would shove from every position apart from possibly the cutoff/button/small blind. If your uncomfortable making decisions on flops then this is a good route to take even in those positions. I think flop play with this hand and situation would be simple enough once we are comfortable enough making assumptions on our opponents ranges, this is largely just practice and knowing your opponent/having experience to draw upon. Each time you have to see a flop with 11 big blinds back and 4.5-5.5 in with one opponent with the betting lead and in position just accept you are making money/have already made a bunch of money and go from there. Forcing yourself out of your comfort zone will help you improve as a player. I feel like I have a significant advantage in certain spots/stack sizes, where I have taken an unusual line before or just have  a lot of experience, ie limping buttons with 30bb which gives me an edge. Think of raise/calling here as the crosscourt backhand finisher in tennis, its pretty important if your a pro but not really needed if your having some fun in the park. 

The hand from OP is a prime example, we would have a relatively tough spot if c/r'd, things are awkward, but our opponent has let us off by allowing us to make an easy fold. I think this example should ease our concerns about raise/calling, our opponent presumably flopped well and let us off cheap. Lets play some poker. It might feel unclean to cbet 1.65bb and fold or check/fold having put in a fifth of our stack but sometimes these things happen.

I really like the way you have explained things in this post Adam. I even had a little Ah-Ha moment about something you said Smiley
Excellent post agreed.
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2014, 09:59:50 PM »

fwiw my point was relating to if we were on the button. I think it's a jam from MP or HJ (can't remember OP) regardless of who's in the blinds, as there's everyone else behind as well and live ppl do like to peel.
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Sulphur man
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2014, 10:02:19 PM »

fwiw my point was relating to if we were on the button. I think it's a jam from MP or HJ (can't remember OP) regardless of who's in the blinds, as there's everyone else behind as well and live ppl do like to peel.
Just pointing out that you actually mentioned image of players behind. Seven handed its a fist pump jam. Would jam it nine handed utg also.
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