Live hand

[tteeeeee]

Live Tournament fairly deep.

blinds 6k 12k

hero playing 160k villain playing 300k and is experienced player

7 players on table

Hero    mid pos opens to 30k folds round to villain in big blind who asks how much I'm playing behind then calls.

flop 

Villian first to act then bets 50k   

Is it a fold, shove or call ?? I was never expecting villain to bet here - expecting a check to me even with strong hands 

Thoughts?

Thank you

[booder]

Shove pre.

[tteeeeee]

average stack is 200k, still shove?

[Oxford_HRV]

i would prefer to shove pre flop! on this board i think it's feasible villain will be taking the lead with gutshots + overcard like A3/4 and pair hands weighted away from the jack like 5x and A2 and maybe anywhere up to 99's

your hand is pretty poor agaisnt that range

Board: Js5s2c
   Equity   Win   Tie
MP2   36.27%   34.84%   1.43%   { AcTc }
MP3   63.73%   62.30%   1.43%   { 99-66, 44-33, A5s-A2s, 75s, 65s, 54s, A5o-A2o, 65o }

so you only got 35% equity here even if he is never betting a jack and most likely zero fold equity when you are all in for 80k more. i never see villain folding if you shove. it's a fold for sure, i dont think i would ever expect villain to b/f or to have complete air when he bets flop.

[Rexas]

Yh, the average stack is less important that you don't have many big blinds. A jam pre for me and a fold now, be very surprised to see him donk bet/fold for your remaining stack.

[Pinchop73]

Ship pre because vs short stacks live players abs love a

Click to see full-size image.

+

[ActionDanS]

Ship pre seems ugly at ~15BB's if it's a soft field which it very often is live.

As played, fold

[Honeybadger]

Ship pre seems ugly at ~15BB's if it's a soft field which it very often is live.

As played, fold

Hero has just over 13 BBs I think. If hero really wants to give himself the option to raise/fold then min-raising preflop is preferable, rather than 2.5x. I am not normally too fussed about tiny differences in opening sizes, and I believe that many MTT players think exact preflop sizing is much more important than it really is. However, with 13 BBs it is actually pretty important - that extra 0.5 BB is a substantial part of hero's stack.

Open jamming still much better though IMO.  ATs is not really strong enough to want to induce a jam, but is too strong to raise/fold. If opening from the BTN/CO then min-raising (to call a jam, not to fold!) becomes at least somewhat interesting, although I would personally still prefer to just jam.

[arbboy]

You don't say if there are antes in the game.  If the antes are 600 or 1000 (which they could easily be at this level) then it's the easiest shove pre ever.  No antes i think the other players stack sizes come into play more and the pay out structure etc.  I still think i am shoving this pre even with no antes.

[pleno1]

this is a shove

[AlexMartin]

minraise or shove pre, as played its horrible but think im folding, just dont expect any folds.

[Honeybadger]

Interested in what the tourney guys think about the merits of min-raising vs jamming if you had this hand on the BTN. Higher variance to raise/call obv, but is it likely to have a higher chipEV? I think I'd always just jam the BTN with ATs and 13 BBs, but wonder if raise/call is better...

[Rexas]

I'd be very surprised if shoving was better than minraise calling from the button.

[Rexas]

I'd be very surprised if shoving was better than minraise calling from the button. EDIT assuming the blinds aren't too nitty, obvs some will only be jamming better and folding everything else :p

[rfgqqabc]

r/c ATs for 13bb on the button virtually always. Depending on the blinds I'd have concerns about long term balance and the like  but in general yeah r/c > jam imo