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redarmi
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2014, 08:34:57 PM »

How can the gambling authorities allow a t&c that states they can close accounts without informing the account holders. Do they bother to check these things? Some of these rules are really really scary and the post about Barrow is just crazy.

The regulators have no interest in helping and protecting punters.  If you look on the Gambling Commissions website they have a pdf which explains what they do and on the second page it has this:

"We don't resolve customer complaints.   Operators who hold a Gambling Commission licence must have
procedures for handling customer complaints and arrangements for
disputes to be referred to an independent third party"

For UK bookmakers that "independent third party" is IBAS and IBAS's funding comes from SIS who are the "one ordinary member".  SIS's main business is the provision of pictures and info to the betting industry but if you look at the shareholders of SIS it is like a rollcall of major UK bookmakers.  Ladbrokes own 23%, Hills own 19.5% Fred Done owns about 13% in total so it is hard to argue that the "independent third party" is actually independent at all.  It is all wholly unsatisfactory but as I mentioned above nobody really seems to do anything about it.
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JoeBeevers
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2014, 09:33:37 PM »

How can the gambling authorities allow a t&c that states they can close accounts without informing the account holders. Do they bother to check these things? Some of these rules are really really scary and the post about Barrow is just crazy.

The regulators have no interest in helping and protecting punters.  If you look on the Gambling Commissions website they have a pdf which explains what they do and on the second page it has this:

"We don't resolve customer complaints.   Operators who hold a Gambling Commission licence must have
procedures for handling customer complaints and arrangements for
disputes to be referred to an independent third party"

For UK bookmakers that "independent third party" is IBAS and IBAS's funding comes from SIS who are the "one ordinary member".  SIS's main business is the provision of pictures and info to the betting industry but if you look at the shareholders of SIS it is like a rollcall of major UK bookmakers.  Ladbrokes own 23%, Hills own 19.5% Fred Done owns about 13% in total so it is hard to argue that the "independent third party" is actually independent at all.  It is all wholly unsatisfactory but as I mentioned above nobody really seems to do anything about it.

Red, is there a list of requirements that an operator has to fulfil to get a license do you know or is it just a case of fill in a form and pay a fee?
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redarmi
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2014, 11:04:29 PM »

How can the gambling authorities allow a t&c that states they can close accounts without informing the account holders. Do they bother to check these things? Some of these rules are really really scary and the post about Barrow is just crazy.

The regulators have no interest in helping and protecting punters.  If you look on the Gambling Commissions website they have a pdf which explains what they do and on the second page it has this:

"We don't resolve customer complaints.   Operators who hold a Gambling Commission licence must have
procedures for handling customer complaints and arrangements for
disputes to be referred to an independent third party"

For UK bookmakers that "independent third party" is IBAS and IBAS's funding comes from SIS who are the "one ordinary member".  SIS's main business is the provision of pictures and info to the betting industry but if you look at the shareholders of SIS it is like a rollcall of major UK bookmakers.  Ladbrokes own 23%, Hills own 19.5% Fred Done owns about 13% in total so it is hard to argue that the "independent third party" is actually independent at all.  It is all wholly unsatisfactory but as I mentioned above nobody really seems to do anything about it.

Red, is there a list of requirements that an operator has to fulfil to get a license do you know or is it just a case of fill in a form and pay a fee?

I don't think it is quite as simple as that.  Basically from what I can gather they have five main, and fairly broad, criteria (from their site):


    1.identity and ownership – the identity of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application and or, in the case of an application for an operating licence, who ultimately owns a corporate applicant.
   2. finances – financial and other circumstances of the applicant, past and present, and or person(s) relevant to the application. For operating licences this will include the resources likely to be available to carry out the licensed activities.
   3. integrity – the honesty and trustworthiness of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application.
   4. competence – the experience, expertise, qualifications and history of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application.
    5. criminality – criminal record of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application.

You can definitely argue that in situations like this that a firm like Betway are in breach of points 3 and 4 but I get the sense that it isn't something that is ever really brought up.  The default seems to be that licensing hearings are held in private which doesnt really promote transparency.  I have, in the past, had some dealings with the Gambling Commission and I would have very little confidence that they really understand the industry and have a sense of very much other than the key policies dictated by government so I would think that their focus is really on things like ensuring firms aren't used to launder money, preventing under age gambling (I honestly think they spend 30%+ of their time on this), preventing criminals getting licenses etc etc.  These are obviously very noble and important goals but they do nothing to protect and represent the millions of ordinary punters that are betting every day.

 Punters need representation that can lobby on their behalf, represent their interests in licensing hearings and just generally work hard to ensure that their interests are served and hold firms to account.  If Betway thought that cancelling a bet 3 months after it was placed for the sake of 300 quid might lead to someone opposing their license then they might think before doing it for example and there are lots of other things that punters could do but it involves coming together and being organised and having some people that are willing to put some time into it.  Maybe something worth having an offline discussion about?
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2014, 03:25:04 PM »

The Barrow bet mentioned is theft, pure and simple, in my eyes.  One bet placed for £20.  And they've just voided it halfway through the race.  Just flat out fraud.
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Karabiner
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2014, 06:19:01 PM »

They've just gone "best price" 25/1 Rajdhani Express in Saturday's PPGC ante-post book. Generous to a fault except for the fact that it's a non-runner.
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2014, 06:25:34 PM »

They've just gone "best price" 25/1 Rajdhani Express in Saturday's PPGC ante-post book. Generous to a fault except for the fact that it's a non-runner.

Ha!

Imagine backing that for £20, & then finding they close your Account as the bet can't lose.
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Karabiner
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2014, 06:53:31 PM »

They've just gone "best price" 25/1 Rajdhani Express in Saturday's PPGC ante-post book. Generous to a fault except for the fact that it's a non-runner.

Ha!

Imagine backing that for £20, & then finding they close your Account as the bet can't lose.

The bet can't win as it's an ante-post market, non-runner you lose.
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« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2014, 01:12:48 AM »

Amazing scenes here. Bit surprising to see this sort of thing go on these days.

They seem to make a habit of ringing customers. I got a call while I was at a Posh match, which seemed to be a general enquiry as to whether I was happy with using them. It came days after I'd tried for a second bet, which was restricted to pence after one bet one loser.

Think the Guernsey coup was with them? £50 free bet. Might ping them to ask if I can cash out for entertainment value.
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DropTheHammer
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« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2014, 10:08:51 AM »


Think the Guernsey coup was with them? £50 free bet. Might ping them to ask if I can cash out for entertainment value.

There were a couple of others too, best not to discuss any more in case the crooks are watching.
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2014, 05:11:14 PM »

Barrow bet seems like outright theft. Been banned for 5 bets that all lost, it appears they are run by my bank manager Wink

They had an advert during the england game coverage. The way they were going I thought it was the spiral usually followed by closure but doesnt appear to be the case.
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Kmac84
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2014, 06:27:13 PM »

Is there a gap in the UK betting market for an ethical bookie who will take all action?

The number of time now you hear of many people losing an account (s) and having difficulty getting on makes you think if you could secure the backing and their must be interested investors in it because a solidly run company not refusing the action must still be in with a big % chance of winning?
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redarmi
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2014, 12:17:05 AM »

Is there a gap in the UK betting market for an ethical bookie who will take all action?

The number of time now you hear of many people losing an account (s) and having difficulty getting on makes you think if you could secure the backing and their must be interested investors in it because a solidly run company not refusing the action must still be in with a big % chance of winning?

I think there is a gap in the market for a firm that takes huge volume and keeps a small margin but the big issue is that for a year or two they won't make any money and will likely lose a fair chunk and it is a fairly high risk investment to start up.  Ultimately I guess you could argue that Betfair already fills that role in the UK.  I'd be fairly surprised if it ever happens in the UK now and even if someone did it their options in terms of an ultimate exit are fairly limited as it isn't really a business for the stock exchange etc as the market doesn't really 'get'  businesses in this sector there unique IMO.  In many ways that has been Betfairs biggest issue since listing. 
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2014, 02:48:00 PM »

Do not have an account at Betway so no personal experience but some of the stories I have read here and elsewhere seem nothing short of disgusting, and gives the whole industry a very bad name.

However, the reason for my post is that I have just seen today that Alan Alger who has been tipping non league for Betting Emporium has joined Betway as 'Sporting events and media Relations manager. (Thought it must have been a joke  when first saw the tweet) Was surprised that someone, who I presume is well respected within the industry would go and work for a bunch of charlatans/cheats, but I guess the poor guy has a mortgage to pay.

Can the BE boys shed any light, does this mean that he will try and sort out/rectify some of the organisations very dubious practices?
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arbboy
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« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2014, 03:19:25 PM »

i wondered where his midweek column was this week.  I assume he won't be posting for BE any more as it would be a conflict of interests. 
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arbboy
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« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2014, 12:01:09 PM »

Posted on BE by Alan.  Hopefully we can get some confirmation that Betway are not going to rob us blind.

Farewell

Last week I took a role with Betway to be their Sporting Events & Media Relations manager. The terms of my contract will prevent me from posting previews and (understandably) tipping up prices with rival bookmakers on Betting Emporium. This is an expected sacrifice for a full-time role.

It's been a strange start to the season and while I am delighted that I leave all followers in profit, it's also frustrating that you experienced one of my worst periods since I've been tipping on this league, around one month ago. I'll still be posting my views on Twitter (@Alan_Alger_), and of course those with the right idea will no doubt seek out the best price without me pointing them in the right direction.

I'd like to thank Betting Emporium (Joe and Neil) for the vote of confidence in allowing me to post here and I wish them every success for the future - you don't need me to tell you how good the site is, but the work put in when selecting the bets is second to none across all of the sports.

As for Betway... There was a degree of bad press just before I joined and obviously the guys at Betting Emporium have decided to remove them from the site. I intend to open up a dialogue between Neil/Joe and the team here so that some progress can be made. As I type this from their extremely nice offices in Camden I can assure you that some of the wilder theories on Twitter were extremely wide of the mark. That's not to say there aren't a number of issues with the &Cs - written primarily from a background in casino, and which we will want to adapt ASAP for UK punters to create a much fairer product. Watch this space.

All the best,

Alan.
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