Horrible Ruling

[aceten0ff]

I was playing a 25/25 series recently, coming towards the last level of day 1 and I pick up in the bb. There is a late position raise, i three bet and the villain elects to call. Flop is  , I C-bet, villain calls. Turn card is , I fire again and the guy shoves on me, I immediately announce "Call", villain turns over    for a flush draw. The dealer (Who is busy watching the football) decides to place the cards that have already been mucked on top of the live deck. I explain to the dealer that there has been an all in and a call. The floor is called over, they proceed to tell me that the whole deck (Apart from the burn cards and the board) will have to be reshuffled before the river card can be dealt. I asked the floor if they could take the top 12 cards from the top of the deck as we were 8 handed (Two players in the hand), They said no... the cards must be reshuffled. I am obviously not happy about this as this is potentially giving the villain more outs, after a lot of discussion and arguing the deck is shuffled and the river is .... i lose 90% of my stack.

Views on this ruling?

[BorntoBubble]

I think, although happy to be corrected that your likelihood of winning the hand is exactly the same with the folded cards reshuffled as it is without them in there. Just because there could have been spades folded doesn't affect it. What happens if all them 12 cards were none spades? Your chances of winning the hand have increased then.

If dead cards have hit live cards and there is no easy way to tell the difference i would say all cards should be reshuffled. It doesn't change any likelihood's so lets move on with the game.

Unfortunately in this instance you lost, if you had won, i would imagine you would have not been to bothered about the ruling.

Its cards unfortunately. mistakes happen but i think the ruling was correct in this case.

[bergeroo]

How is it giving him more outs? It is totally random whether the people have already folded spades or not. It might actually give you a better chance if a lot of non spades folded. He has a gutshot too remember. I guess as it folded around to the button there is a chance one or more have folded, so if these go back into the deck this is a slight boost to the all in hand.

Interested to hear what other people's rulings would be though.

[TightEnd]

the dealer error is unfortunate but they happen. its part of the game

in my experience this is the most common and correct ruling, to reshuffle the whole deck apart from the community and burn cards

[aceten0ff]

I didn't make to much fuss about it, I guess it is harder to accept knowing that the outcome has POTENTIALLY been changed due to an error made by the dealer.

[kinboshi]

I asked the floor if they could take the top 12 cards from the top of the deck as we were 8 handed (Two players in the hand), They said no... the cards must be reshuffled. I am obviously not happy about this as this is potentially giving the villain more outs

Can you explain why this potentially gives the villain more outs, and why it bothered you? 

It might (or might not) add another spade into the deck, but it also might (or not) add more non-spade cards that can come out as well.

Basically, it makes no difference in terms of the probabilities - the chances of a spade coming out are the same as before.

[cambridgealex]

I asked the floor if they could take the top 12 cards from the top of the deck as we were 8 handed (Two players in the hand), They said no... the cards must be reshuffled. I am obviously not happy about this as this is potentially giving the villain more outs

Can you explain why this potentially gives the villain more outs, and why it bothered you? 

I can explain this Kin Boshi. It potentially gave the villain more outs because the muck could've been riddled with spades! And that in turn bothered the hero because that would decrease his chances of winning the hand.

Having said that, it makes no difference to the odds as everyone has said and the ruling seems to be fair if it's not 100% obvious which cards are in the muck and which aren't.

[OverTheBorder]

Had they done it your way and a spade came could you be posting the ruling is bad as the cards should have been shuffled and how can they guarantee the integrity of the cards. Ultimately in circumstances there is no easy way to fix it as someone will lose the hand and be annoyed and mistakes do happen.

[aceten0ff]

I asked the floor if they could take the top 12 cards from the top of the deck as we were 8 handed (Two players in the hand), They said no... the cards must be reshuffled. I am obviously not happy about this as this is potentially giving the villain more outs

Can you explain why this potentially gives the villain more outs, and why it bothered you? 

It might (or might not) add another spade into the deck, but it also might (or not) add more non-spade cards that can come out as well.

Basically, it makes no difference in terms of the probabilities - the chances of a spade coming out are the same as before.

That's why I used the word "potentially", I get what you're saying in terms of probability it makes no difference but the chances are at least one spade was folded, so by that Spade going back in the deck that gives him an out he wouldn't have had. Of course there are more brick cards going back in deck which makes it less likely he will hit his out. I think you are always going to be annoyed if you lose a hand after the dealer has made an error.

I wasn't complaining about the rule I simply wanted to hear other peoples views on this rule.

[tikay]

A most unfortunate situation, but not a horrible ruling, the ruling seems to be standard, & correct. Hard to imagine any reputable Card Room doing anything different here. 

[Rexas]

I asked the floor if they could take the top 12 cards from the top of the deck as we were 8 handed (Two players in the hand), They said no... the cards must be reshuffled. I am obviously not happy about this as this is potentially giving the villain more outs

Can you explain why this potentially gives the villain more outs, and why it bothered you? 

It might (or might not) add another spade into the deck, but it also might (or not) add more non-spade cards that can come out as well.

Basically, it makes no difference in terms of the probabilities - the chances of a spade coming out are the same as before.

That's why I used the word "potentially", I get what you're saying in terms of probability it makes no difference but the chances are at least one spade was folded, so by that Spade going back in the deck that gives him an out he wouldn't have had. Of course there are more brick cards going back in deck which makes it less likely he will hit his out. I think you are always going to be annoyed if you lose a hand after the dealer has made an error.

I wasn't complaining about the rule I simply wanted to hear other peoples views on this rule.

This logic isn't quite right, although it would give him an extra spade it would also effectively give you an extra 11 "outs". There's little more the floor can do, this ruling is as good as it can be imo.

[Omm]

It sounds like your a little bit more angry that the dealer wasn't concentrating and doing his job properly more than anything, which happens more than it should do in certain casino's, I always have thought dealers should be able to get warnings just like players.

[aceten0ff]

I always have thought dealers should be able to get warnings just like players.

Agreed.

[Rexas]

I always have thought dealers should be able to get warnings just like players.

Agreed.

I'm sure they do, privately. The abuse they get from the players is often more of a punishment than a warning, and if a TD turned round and said to a dealer "I'm giving you a warning for not paying attention" then all they'd get until the next push would be "This fucking dealer's shit, even their boss knows it!" from the rest of the table. Despite outward appearances, I'm sure this dealer regretted making this mistake.

[aceten0ff]

I always have thought dealers should be able to get warnings just like players.

Agreed.

I'm sure they do, privately. The abuse they get from the players is often more of a punishment than a warning, and if a TD turned round and said to a dealer "I'm giving you a warning for not paying attention" then all they'd get until the next push would be "This fucking dealer's shit, even their boss knows it!" from the rest of the table. Despite outward appearances, I'm sure this dealer regretted making this mistake.

This was a GUKPT dealer which I have seen deal at lot's of different events, there is a big difference between ,making a genuine mistake and watching whats on the tele on the other side of the casino. I won't hold a grudge against him... promise lol