Bank rolling - someone who wants to turn pro

[arbboy]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

How is final tabling a 100 runner event finishing in the top 3? (you state £5k prizepools with abi of £50) so it's fair to assume there are 100 runners in these events.  I assume FT will have 10 players on it.  So you have gone from finishing in the top 3% of an mtt to the top 10% of an mtt 20% of the time.  Big difference.

Run me through the maths of where you get a £20 hourly rate AFTER expenses from playing £50 100 runner live mtts if you wouldn't mind?

Also the vast majority of your hourly rate over time in such top heavy mtt's (£1600 first prize from a £5k prize pool) will be converting final table finishes into wins.  Even if you make 20% of FT's that won't turn a profit if you keep folding to make the final table with no chance of actually winning.  Someone that is so concerned about making the FT so often is highly likely to be a loser long term in these type of mtt's imo.

[UgotNuts]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

How is final tabling a 100 runner event finishing in the top 3? (you state £5k prizepools with abi of £50) so it's fair to assume there is 100 runners in these events.  I assume FT will have 10 players on it.  So you have gone from finishing in the top 3% of an mtt to the top 10% of an mtt 20% of the time.  Big difference.

Run me through the maths of where you get a £20 hourly rate AFTER expenses from playing £50 100 runner live mtts if you wouldn't mind?

I have changed the goal posts in regards to finishing top 3 to final table I'll give you that one. What would you say the normal percentage of time someone final table's and then go on to finish in the top 3? 33% based on 9 handed final table? so based of making the final table 20% of the time your going to make the top 3 6% of the time. I'll run the numbers later on today and see what it pops out as an hourly rate.

The £20 an hour was an example from the post I replied to. I simple put that figure in a 40 hour week..... It would all depend on how far you live from the venue ect ect.

[TightEnd]

Over a three year spell at Luton, 2008-2010 i finalled tabled 1 in 3 sub £100 comps i played in, all recorded and colour coded on the spreadsheet lol

was at best, and thats stretching it, a marginal winner because my style got me to 6th-9th a lot and rarely with a stack that got me top 3

all it did was kept me playing the games as often as i wanted, funding the next few buy ins etc etc

i think from experience and watching very very few will hit top 3 20% of the time

going back to the OP, far better in my opinion to be a piecemeal staker as and when packages go up rather than commit to something as a medium term arrangement

ask Simon Galloway questions, no one better than to advise.

[tikay]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

How is final tabling a 100 runner event finishing in the top 3? (you state £5k prizepools with abi of £50) so it's fair to assume there is 100 runners in these events.  I assume FT will have 10 players on it.  So you have gone from finishing in the top 3% of an mtt to the top 10% of an mtt 20% of the time.  Big difference.

Run me through the maths of where you get a £20 hourly rate AFTER expenses from playing £50 100 runner live mtts if you wouldn't mind?

I have changed the goal posts in regards to finishing top 3 to final table I'll give you that one. What would you say the normal percentage of time someone final table's and then go on to finish in the top 3? 33% based on 9 handed final table? so based of making the final table 20% of the time your going to make the top 3 6% of the time. I'll run the numbers later on today and see what it pops out as an hourly rate.

The £20 an hour was an example from the post I replied to. I simple put that figure in a 40 hour week..... It would all depend on how far you live from the venue ect ect.

Run those numbers, & you'll not cover the buy-ins for the 100 MTT's, or at best only cover them marginally.

Turn the numbers upside down.

Fail to cash 80% of the time.

Cash small (4th - 10th) 14% of the time.

Cash top 3 6% of the time. Assume an average of 2nd place. 100 runners comp, £55 Buy-In, £5,000 Prize Poool, what would 2nd pay, £800? 6 x £800 = £4,800. Our Buy-Ins cost us £5,500.

We have not considered exs yet.

We must be misunderstanding each other, it's simply not possible to "make a living" on those numbers, even if they could be achieved.

How do you define "make a living"? £200 per week? How many Live MTT's per week do we need to play, & finish Top 3, to end up with £200 per week profit AFTER exs? That's EVERY week, not some weeks.

2 blank weeks - perfectly normal - & now we need to make £600 this week.

[arbboy]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

How is final tabling a 100 runner event finishing in the top 3? (you state £5k prizepools with abi of £50) so it's fair to assume there is 100 runners in these events.  I assume FT will have 10 players on it.  So you have gone from finishing in the top 3% of an mtt to the top 10% of an mtt 20% of the time.  Big difference.

Run me through the maths of where you get a £20 hourly rate AFTER expenses from playing £50 100 runner live mtts if you wouldn't mind?

I have changed the goal posts in regards to finishing top 3 to final table I'll give you that one. What would you say the normal percentage of time someone final table's and then go on to finish in the top 3? 33% based on 9 handed final table? so based of making the final table 20% of the time your going to make the top 3 6% of the time. I'll run the numbers later on today and see what it pops out as an hourly rate.

The £20 an hour was an example from the post I replied to. I simple put that figure in a 40 hour week..... It would all depend on how far you live from the venue ect ect.

Run those numbers, & you'll not cover the buy-ins for the 100 MTT's, or at best only cover them marginally.

Turn the numbers upside down.

Fail to cash 80% of the time.

Cash small (4th - 10th) 14% of the time.

Cash top 3 6% of the time. Assume an average of 2nd place. 100 runners comp, £55 Buy-In, £5,000 Prize Poool, what would 2nd pay, £800? 6 x £800 = £4,800. Our Buy-Ins cost us £5,500.

We have not considered exs yet.

We must be misunderstanding each other, it's simply not possible to "make a living" on those numbers, even if they could be achieved.

How do you define "make a living"? £200 per week? How many Live MTT's per week do we need to play, & finish Top 3, to end up with £200 per week profit AFTER exs? That's EVERY week, not some weeks.

2 blank weeks - perfectly normal - & now we need to make £600 this week.

We need to make £600 this week to cover our last 3 weeks wages.  Assuming one £55 mtt a night for 6 nights a week we also have to make an additional £990 this week to cover the 18 £55 buy ins for the last 3 weeks comps.  Therefore in week 3 we have to cash for nearly £1600 in 6 £50 mtts to achieve our weekly wage of £200 over the 3 weeks in question.  As Tikay states this ignores all expenses other than rake.  

[UgotNuts]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

How is final tabling a 100 runner event finishing in the top 3? (you state £5k prizepools with abi of £50) so it's fair to assume there is 100 runners in these events.  I assume FT will have 10 players on it.  So you have gone from finishing in the top 3% of an mtt to the top 10% of an mtt 20% of the time.  Big difference.

Run me through the maths of where you get a £20 hourly rate AFTER expenses from playing £50 100 runner live mtts if you wouldn't mind?

I have changed the goal posts in regards to finishing top 3 to final table I'll give you that one. What would you say the normal percentage of time someone final table's and then go on to finish in the top 3? 33% based on 9 handed final table? so based of making the final table 20% of the time your going to make the top 3 6% of the time. I'll run the numbers later on today and see what it pops out as an hourly rate.

The £20 an hour was an example from the post I replied to. I simple put that figure in a 40 hour week..... It would all depend on how far you live from the venue ect ect.

Run those numbers, & you'll not cover the buy-ins for the 100 MTT's, or at best only cover them marginally.

Turn the numbers upside down.

Fail to cash 80% of the time.

Cash small (4th - 10th) 14% of the time.

Cash top 3 6% of the time. Assume an average of 2nd place. 100 runners comp, £55 Buy-In, £5,000 Prize Poool, what would 2nd pay, £800? 6 x £800 = £4,800. Our Buy-Ins cost us £5,500.

We have not considered exs yet.

We must be misunderstanding each other, it's simply not possible to "make a living" on those numbers, even if they could be achieved.

How do you define "make a living"? £200 per week? How many Live MTT's per week do we need to play, & finish Top 3, to end up with £200 per week profit AFTER exs? That's EVERY week, not some weeks.

2 blank weeks - perfectly normal - & now we need to make £600 this week.

You are perfectly right Sir, in my stupidity I was assuming we are making 20 quid an hour as per the post I responded to originally. Lesson learned. If you run it over a course of 100 MTT you would indeed be making a loss.

[tikay]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

How is final tabling a 100 runner event finishing in the top 3? (you state £5k prizepools with abi of £50) so it's fair to assume there is 100 runners in these events.  I assume FT will have 10 players on it.  So you have gone from finishing in the top 3% of an mtt to the top 10% of an mtt 20% of the time.  Big difference.

Run me through the maths of where you get a £20 hourly rate AFTER expenses from playing £50 100 runner live mtts if you wouldn't mind?

I have changed the goal posts in regards to finishing top 3 to final table I'll give you that one. What would you say the normal percentage of time someone final table's and then go on to finish in the top 3? 33% based on 9 handed final table? so based of making the final table 20% of the time your going to make the top 3 6% of the time. I'll run the numbers later on today and see what it pops out as an hourly rate.

The £20 an hour was an example from the post I replied to. I simple put that figure in a 40 hour week..... It would all depend on how far you live from the venue ect ect.

Run those numbers, & you'll not cover the buy-ins for the 100 MTT's, or at best only cover them marginally.

Turn the numbers upside down.

Fail to cash 80% of the time.

Cash small (4th - 10th) 14% of the time.

Cash top 3 6% of the time. Assume an average of 2nd place. 100 runners comp, £55 Buy-In, £5,000 Prize Poool, what would 2nd pay, £800? 6 x £800 = £4,800. Our Buy-Ins cost us £5,500.

We have not considered exs yet.

We must be misunderstanding each other, it's simply not possible to "make a living" on those numbers, even if they could be achieved.

How do you define "make a living"? £200 per week? How many Live MTT's per week do we need to play, & finish Top 3, to end up with £200 per week profit AFTER exs? That's EVERY week, not some weeks.

2 blank weeks - perfectly normal - & now we need to make £600 this week.

You are perfectly right Sir, in my stupidity I was assuming we are making 20 quid an hour as per the post I responded to originally. Lesson learned. If you run it over a course of 100 MTT you would indeed be making a loss.

No worries man, we got there in the end.

It worries me - really worries me - when these threads say stuff like that, & youngsters get it in their head that they can go play Live MTT's & turn a living. They can't, (unless they are quite exceptionally talented), & we must not let them think they can, it will end badly.

"Sir"? No need, no need. "Sir" is usually resereved for important peeps, or very old people.

I was described yesterday as a "total fucking clown" by a riggie. Somehow, it seemed so much more appropriate. 

[nirvana]

This is without factoring in most mid week comps are shite in local Luton events and get nowhere near 1600 ftw although the expense is similar.

Even great players like me with an incredible conversion rate would have to move back in with me mum if I couldn't fall back on a 6 figure salary

[UgotNuts]

What makes you think he is a winning player?

Why can he not bankroll himself from his regular job?

I doubt his figure is based on anything too solid and I doubt that for someone who this is a new experience for should be taking on such a deal. The hours involved, emotional discipline needed and finding a plus ev schedule, especially for him who will be providing 100% of the time and be receiving less than a 100% of the money in a live environment which whilst having lower variance involves more costs and more pitfalls of being in a casino. This is a really bad idea. To play live tournaments for a living you honestly need to be playing with an average buyin of probably £1k or higher and even then it is heavily dependent on your overall expenses. I don't think it is worthwhile travelling to a GPS for over £80 worth of expenses and I'd imagine my roi is higher than the potential horse.  


Just buying x% of his action and not committing him to a deal with makeup seems to make much more sense for both parties.

why would you have to play 1k buy ins to play for a living? It all depends on how much money you require to make a living rather than just trying to win a small to medium house.

GPS in Birmingham. £20 petrol, £20 food (seems low, 2x meal 1x brekkie) £50 hotel £90 in expenses. 50% roi on 440 = 220 so your ev is £130 over roughly 6 hours playing time for an hourly of £20 but when you include getting to and from the venue being free for all day one and day two etc your hourly is just a pittance and your variance is insane.

If your ABI is £50 and your roi is 100% you need an average playing time of ~5 hours to be worthwhile and no expenses at all which just isn't possible.

I understand what you are saying, and keeping expenses to a min to maximize your ROI. But it also depends on other factors, such as the time period/number of tournaments which you take into account. You cant just pluck a figure of 50% ROI as an average figure. An average prize pool for the an ABI of £50 will normally be around the 5K mark with about 1600 up top, you could potentially win 31 times your buy in for a much higher ROI of 50, and depending on your skill level finish in the top 3 positions about 1/5 of the time. A know a few people who achieve this type of return in local comps in such as Luton G casino.

Having an average hour rate of £20 quid playing 40 hours a week 48 weeks of the year, your making 800 quid a week, £41,600 a year tax free......    

20% of the time you think you will finish in the top 3 in a 100 runner 1 day live turbo donkfest?  Are you serious?  You talk of plucking figures out of the air where do you get this 20% figure from and the £20 average hourly rate (this was mentioned by the previous poster on a £440 buy in comp where said player has a 50% roi in these types of games)?  Have you factored in rake for these type of comps which will be 10% min more likely 15-20% on the buy in.  Expenses getting to and from the venue, travel time getting to and from the venue?  A weekly or twice weekly tip for the dealers as you plan to finish top 3 at least once a week?

I trying to think of something constructive to say in response..... If you cant final table 20% of the time (top 3 as stated above) then you shouldn't be considering being a MTT Pro. We are not talking about a "Fun"player" who will final table once in a blue moon.

And yes an Average hourly rate of £20 would indeed include expenses.

How is final tabling a 100 runner event finishing in the top 3? (you state £5k prizepools with abi of £50) so it's fair to assume there is 100 runners in these events.  I assume FT will have 10 players on it.  So you have gone from finishing in the top 3% of an mtt to the top 10% of an mtt 20% of the time.  Big difference.

Run me through the maths of where you get a £20 hourly rate AFTER expenses from playing £50 100 runner live mtts if you wouldn't mind?

I have changed the goal posts in regards to finishing top 3 to final table I'll give you that one. What would you say the normal percentage of time someone final table's and then go on to finish in the top 3? 33% based on 9 handed final table? so based of making the final table 20% of the time your going to make the top 3 6% of the time. I'll run the numbers later on today and see what it pops out as an hourly rate.

The £20 an hour was an example from the post I replied to. I simple put that figure in a 40 hour week..... It would all depend on how far you live from the venue ect ect.

Run those numbers, & you'll not cover the buy-ins for the 100 MTT's, or at best only cover them marginally.

Turn the numbers upside down.

Fail to cash 80% of the time.

Cash small (4th - 10th) 14% of the time.

Cash top 3 6% of the time. Assume an average of 2nd place. 100 runners comp, £55 Buy-In, £5,000 Prize Poool, what would 2nd pay, £800? 6 x £800 = £4,800. Our Buy-Ins cost us £5,500.

We have not considered exs yet.

We must be misunderstanding each other, it's simply not possible to "make a living" on those numbers, even if they could be achieved.

How do you define "make a living"? £200 per week? How many Live MTT's per week do we need to play, & finish Top 3, to end up with £200 per week profit AFTER exs? That's EVERY week, not some weeks.

2 blank weeks - perfectly normal - & now we need to make £600 this week.

You are perfectly right Sir, in my stupidity I was assuming we are making 20 quid an hour as per the post I responded to originally. Lesson learned. If you run it over a course of 100 MTT you would indeed be making a loss.

No worries man, we got there in the end.

It worries me - really worries me - when these threads say stuff like that, & youngsters get it in their head that they can go play Live MTT's & turn a living. They can't, (unless they are quite exceptionally talented), & we must not let them think they can, it will end badly.

"Sir"? No need, no need. "Sir" is usually resereved for important peeps, or very old people.

I was described yesterday as a "total fucking clown" by a riggie. Somehow, it seemed so much more appropriate. 

just to clear something up, does it make a difference at all if you play higher buy in events, say 1K over the same period. I guess this will end in the same way, but the prize pools will differ a lot (1M for ukpc main event, compared to 200K for GUKPTs)

[cambridgealex]

I think Adam has it about right when he says unless you're regularly playing £1ks or higher, you simply cannot make a living out of just live tournaments. Even if you are really good. And no offence, but if OP's friend was really good then something tells me the thread wouldn't be here in the first place.

I would put the odds of this working out well at 1000/1. I think it's best to be brutally honest, as Tikay said, so many people are sold down the river and they think it's possible to quit the day job and make it playing nightly comps in the local casino - it simply isn't.

[cambridgealex]

@ugotnuts yes it makes a huge difference because a 20% ROI on a £1k comp is £200. So that's £200 that you'll "earn" in EV by entering the tournament. A much higher ROI, 50% on a £50 is £25. So that's £25 you'll "earn" in EV by playing.

£25 over an average of say 3 or 4 hours, and then there's expenses - it's clearly absolute pennies. However £200 in EV makes it worth a bit of petrol and a hotel if you make day 2 (I think Adam was wrong to include hotels in his calculations, 70% of the time you won't make day 2 and won't need a hotel so I'd factor that in, also factoring in meals seems kinda silly. It's not like you don't eat if you don't play the tournament).  

[cambridgealex]

This is why you don't see (many) professionals playing the £50 grand prix or this £100 ukpc mini (at least not the live day 1s). Because your long term hourly is pennies and good professionals know this. If you can play the online day 1s and play your other tournaments alongside it then it's fine, you can add a extra fiver or tenner to your hourly and once you make day 2 it'll be worth the expenses for sure. But travelling to play the live day 1 for x hours where your EV is gonna be <£50 just isn't a good choice for a professional player.

[UgotNuts]

@ugotnuts yes it makes a huge difference because a 20% ROI on a £1k comp is £200. So that's £200 that you'll "earn" in EV by entering the tournament. A much higher ROI, 50% on a £50 is £25. So that's £25 you'll "earn" in EV by playing.

£25 over an average of say 3 or 4 hours, and then there's expenses - it's clearly absolute pennies. However £200 in EV makes it worth a bit of petrol and a hotel if you make day 2 (I think Adam was wrong to include hotels in his calculations, 70% of the time you won't make day 2 and won't need a hotel so I'd factor that in, also factoring in meals seems kinda silly. It's not like you don't eat if you don't play the tournament).  

Yeah point taken. I think I also confused myself by excluding the buy in from the ROI. When its clearly saying your making 200 quid on top of your 1K investment.

[EvilPie]

This is without factoring in most mid week comps are shite in local Luton events and get nowhere near 1600 ftw although the expense is similar.

Even great players like me with an incredible conversion rate would have to move back in with me mum if I couldn't fall back on a 6 figure salary

I love you Glen.

[Simon Galloway]

Over a three year spell at Luton, 2008-2010 i finalled tabled 1 in 3 sub £100 comps i played in, all recorded and colour coded on the spreadsheet lol

was at best, and thats stretching it, a marginal winner because my style got me to 6th-9th a lot and rarely with a stack that got me top 3

all it did was kept me playing the games as often as i wanted, funding the next few buy ins etc etc

i think from experience and watching very very few will hit top 3 20% of the time

going back to the OP, far better in my opinion to be a piecemeal staker as and when packages go up rather than commit to something as a medium term arrangement

ask Simon Galloway questions, no one better than to advise.

Interesting, on lots of points.  We played a lot of tournys around the same era, my result keeping wasn't as meticulous as yours but certainly by 2010 or so the game was changing.  Terrible players were less common, which meant that most players were at least capable of pacing their stack well enough to give you one tight spot before exiting.  Of course, that saw variance increase exponentially and even in 2015 I see players make re-raises on the river where even a call can't possibly be good, but it certainly happens less than it used to.

Given the choice of being piecemeal or a medium term arrangement, then the latter is much much much better IF AND ONLY IF you have a good horse.  And you won't know if you have a good horse until they go into a chunk of arrears.  Will they still play the same, will they only be interested in playing the larger buyin tournys on the week now as there's "no point" in playing the smaller stuff?  Will they become gunshy during run-bad and fail to move their stack around when they should?  Or will they go the other way and start banging every spot, trying to win every tourney from 6 tables out in order to magi-bink clear the MU.  Or will they suddenly have other things to attend to and now hardly play.

There was a massive element in OP that honesty was no issue ~ great if that's the case but there are literally thousands of ways you can get screwed, and very few ways to prevent it.  Some of them would be almost inadvertent, while others would be more sinister.  I won't bother listing them as I'll assume the assumption is good that it can't possibly be an issue.

So we know that grinding £50 mtts every night is impossible.  Which means either the player has to be very solid at cash and not play mtts (and now their action is completely unauditable apart from random observation {in terms of quality control as well as results reported})

Before the player gives up the day job (assuming the day job isn't minimum wage and insta-replacable) I'd recommend having them grind some 180s online or some low stakes cash.  While variance will always cloud clear judgments on small samples, if the player has fundamental shortcomings they will get exposed quickly online.  If the player can beat online, then you have the potential to have a longer term arrangement with them (expenses now go waaaay down, yes you still have to eat but a bowl of shreddies and a can of soup costs less than a burger and fries at the casino, never mind travel costs, tips, waiting around for games to start/seats to open etc) You could create a hybrid agreement where when in X of profit they gave the local casino a live spin  in the monthly £100-er or whatever.  If the player can't beat online, he is also very unlikely to be 50% ROI+ material live either.  In which case, I suspect piecemeal would be your best shot, but still quite likely to be heavy going.

Absolutely everyone here in the know has priced it up as 1000/1 material as presented.  That's because they have either tried to do it, or know of plenty that have, and have seen the pitfalls involved.  Put another way, if you can't immediately recall 20 different strokes pulled by renowned horses, then you simply haven't been around poker long enough to truly understand what you are doing, and that's not meant to be remotely unkind.