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Author Topic: Padooki/O8 Dc iso spots  (Read 2736 times)
POWWWWWWWW
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« on: March 11, 2015, 01:23:26 PM »

Hey guys,

New to a weekly DC game so no reads on any of the players except that they play together regularly, are loose/passive and seemingly not very good, although I am semi new to mix games and doing a lot of work in the run up to the WSOP.
Game is 2/2 stacks ranging from 100-1k, I cover.
First hand is Padooki, first time playing it although I've played badugi a little. It's 8 handed I'm in the blind 5 limpers to me I check and discard all 4 (KKQJ). Get two hearts three clubs pot out (ok?) 2 callers then man with around £130 pots it. Question is is it better to repot here to iso with a nut draw or take it probably 4 way? Other stacks are around £200 and £350. Villain seems a little tilted and is stuck, one of the other just doubled (3/4) me in O8 but is still stuck and the other is very bad/stuck/tilted.

Second hand is 5 crad O8. I check after 4 limpers with Two Diamonds in BB. Flop is three diamonds , checks round. Turn I bet pot, call, call,villain Pots. Villain potting seems tight/old etc picks Badugi every hand so I'm assuming he's weak at O8. Other 2 stack sizes are £300 and £450. Better to flat as our draw is so good or iso vs a probable set/KT wrap/low. I repot thinking I hardly get paid on a lot of my nut rivers, I chop the low quite often if its 4 way and I have a sunstantial equity advantage vs the villains GII range on the turn and other 2 villains don't get to realize their shitty equity for cheap.

Thoughts on both hands welcome.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2015, 02:05:30 PM »

Can't really answer on the padooki hand without knowing how many cards your opponents drew on the first change. If the villain who potted the first change vs your lead had drawn only one card then there is a strong case for just folding tbh.
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POWWWWWWWW
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2015, 02:14:47 PM »

Yeh sorry he drew 2
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2015, 03:23:52 PM »

Re-potting to isolate is okay then. Not quite as good a spot as you might at first think though, because

a) you are gonna be out of position for the two remaining draws vs him - which gives him the edge even though you will be drawing better than him, and
b) he will actually have a padooki a decent amount of the time, which makes you a substantial dog. And finally,
c) one of the initial callers could be slowplaying a padooki.

But then it's gambling innit Smiley
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2015, 03:29:27 PM »

Where is this game btw?
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POWWWWWWWW
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2015, 04:16:06 PM »

Re-potting to isolate is okay then. Not quite as good a spot as you might at first think though, because

a) you are gonna be out of position for the two remaining draws vs him - which gives him the edge even though you will be drawing better than him, and
b) he will actually have a padooki a decent amount of the time, which makes you a substantial dog. And finally,
c) one of the initial callers could be slowplaying a padooki.

But then it's gambling innit Smiley

I think I could pretty much rule out c with the way the game/players were playing. Regarding a), does the fact we can stand on/make 2 flushes that will be the best hand a lot of the time if he is drawing negate his positional advantage?
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POWWWWWWWW
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2015, 04:16:18 PM »

In Notts
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2015, 04:54:53 PM »

I think I could pretty much rule out c with the way the game/players were playing. Regarding a), does the fact we can stand on/make 2 flushes that will be the best hand a lot of the time if he is drawing negate his positional advantage?


Regarding c) ...even a very small chance that one of the callers has a decent made padooki screws the maths up for you. And, even with reads, you can never be 100% certain that this is not the case.

And regarding a)... no, the standing pat on a flush play strongly favours the player in position. You cannot really stand pat on a 7 flush on the last change because you do not know villain has not made a padooki at that point, and even if is still drawing then he is only a small dog vs a 7 flush. You're either dead (if he pats behind) or a small favourite. Whereas if you draw on the last change villain can easily pat a 7 flush or better, since he knows for sure that you are drawing and that he is a small favourite.

It is a disaster when you pat a flush on the last change and villain then pats behind you - because you have snap gone from having ~20% equity to having 0% equity. This sort of mathematical disaster is much more likely to happen to the person out of position than to the person in position.

Despite all this though, I'd still re-pot to try to isolate. Gambling is allowed, after all Wink
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 05:09:23 PM by Honeybadger » Logged
POWWWWWWWW
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2015, 05:05:36 PM »

Thanks for the advice, really helped me understand the game a bit better, seems like a fun/complex/variancey game. Start/discussion is hard to come by as well.

Any thoughts on the O8 hand?
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rfgqqabc
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2015, 05:49:09 PM »

I like leading the flop in the o8 hand. You have most of the cards people will bet with in your hand so just get some chips in. I'd call on the turn because we do have some bricks out there and only off suit 8/7s give us a weak hand. A256 are all possible scoops even with someone calling behind, so I wouldn't be worried about someone else getting involved behind. It is kinda hard to say without knowing the exact bet sizes/stacks.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 05:49:56 PM »

Any thoughts on the O8 hand?

You did not mention villain's stack size. However, I'd tend to flat his raise rather than seeking to isolate and get all-in on the turn by re-re-potting. One reason for this is that you're not pushing equity vs the strong parts of his range (*see below) - and he is going to have a very strong hand a lot of the time given that he has re-potted you after a couple of callers. Another reason is that your hand has very, very good visibility. Any non pairing diamond, any Q, any low card below a 7, you know where you stand. Anything else... well you also know where you stand! Yes it is annoying when it goes mutliway to the river and a non-diamond 7 or 8 comes, and thus there is some benefit to pushing any other A2s out of the pot so that you are less likely to end up with 1/4 of the pot. But you have to risk a lot of money to - maybe - achieve this. You have so many pure nut - or close to pure nut - outs  (diamonds, Qs and 6s = pure nut outs; Aces, 2s and 5s = almost pure nut outs) that I don't mind it going multiway to the river anyway. You have WAY more wonderful outs than you do annoying outs (only non-diamond 7s and 8s are annoying outs, and there are only five of these), so I like keeping others in the pot. In old school lingo... you have a pulling hand, not a pushing hand. You don't mind encouraging attendance in this pot ('pulling' the other two callers in by flatting) rather than pushing them all out.

I'd bet the flop btw.


* If we run two sims, one a 'favourable' one and the other an unfavourable one, we can see that you are often going to be pushing an equity disadvantage in this spot vs villain's re-pot on the turn:
1. If we give villain a hand like KsThTdAc5c - which is actually a pretty good part of his nutted range to be against - you are still at a 45/55 equity disadvantage.
2. Give villain instead a hand like QsThTdAc2c - which is a very bad part of his nutted range to be against - and you only have 37% equity.
So you are unlikely to be pushing any equity by getting all-in on the turn. And with a lot of nut outs, great visibility etc you are actually 'letting villain off' by allowing him to get all-in on the turn.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 06:06:28 PM by Honeybadger » Logged
POWWWWWWWW
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2015, 06:47:36 PM »

Great analysis guys, thank you. Villain has around £150~. I agree with everything you say here and during the hand have definitely over estimated my equity vs a reasonable GII range from villain, and have jammed because I can't ever be doing bad vs anything and to try to save myself making a mistake on various rivers due to inexperience. However like you say there are no difficult decisions on the river and I am definitely losing value by pushing out worse draws from the other 2 players.   
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 04:30:56 PM »

I think i would squeeze pre flop in the O8 hand? Slightly less keen since neither adam or stu have suggested it who would be my go to people on O8. I'd defo lead the flop though, big hand you now have, lets get money in and there is no way for this to go that is bad for you, someone raises = fine, 4 people call = fine it's just a great spot, and also you have the nut card (  ) means the liklihood of it being bet at all mulitway is reduced a fair amount.

In the padooki hand I think checking when you potted is way better, you drew 4 so you're going to get zero credit for a good padooki at this point so I think you really under-rep the strength of your draw just chk-calling, I think you'll get sick action if you make a big hand playing it this way and you have no fold equity and only a small equity advantage atm. I'd play it to win a big pot when you hit something big here...

These aren't games that I'm very good at mind!
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 07:22:29 PM »

Yeah Dave is right - in the padooki hand it is not good to lead into the field after the first change, despite having picked up a very good draw. You're not pushing any equity even though your draw is obviously better than anyone else's draw. The reason for this is twofold. First, obviously one of your opponents could already be pat - you are 'betting blind' into the field (as opposed to betting in position after everyone has checked to you). Second, you are going to be out of position for the remaining changes, which is a huge disadvantage. Even if your 'raw equity' is good vs anything other than a pat hand, this equity advantage is not truly real. Your opponents will be able to make better drawing decisions down the streets than you will (because you act first and they act last they will have an information advantage vs you on every draw) and so their equity is actually better than yours despite you having the 'best draw'.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 08:19:06 PM »

As regards Lil'Dave's suggestion about raising preflop in the O8 hand rather than checking your option in the blinds...

It cannot be bad to raise preflop. Your hand is quite good, and people tend to limp with some completely unreasonable hands in this game. So it is a good idea to make them put more money in the pot with their QJ662 or 99874, or whatever bag of bollocks they have limped in with. However your hand is no powerhouse - it is just good, nothing more - and you are going to be out of position throughout the hand. Position is really important in High Low, probably more so than Omaha High, due to the bi-directionality. By raising preflop you are bloating a pot in which you are going to be out of position. Also by checking your option you get some deception going for you since you have, in their eyes, a completely random hand in the BB. If you raise from the BB most of your opponents will assume you have A2 in your hand, which makes them less likely to make bad calls with non-nut lows down the streets.

So I'd tend to check my option with this hand, although it is a style/gameplan dependent thing in many ways, and there is nothing wrong with raising.
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