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Author Topic: Hillsborough disaster  (Read 6076 times)
bookiebasher
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« on: April 16, 2015, 01:32:59 AM »

26 years to the day , not strictly true cause past midnight , grates me somewhat.

Was there that day in the Forest end and obviously saw pre and post match a lot of what happened.

We all know the police made mistakes and then tried to cover it up .

Just can't get my head round it being all blamed on them though.

26 years have passed , still haunts me that fateful day  ,  where is one's own responsibility in all of this.

So many variables led to what happened and not all was  David Duckenfields fault , just for opening the gates.

Hate to get in such an emotive subject where 96 people lost their lives but  it does not sit comfortable with me
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The Camel
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 09:43:47 AM »

If the police and the Government had been honest and given precise details of what really happened at Hillsborough from the start, there wouldn't have been 26 years of campaigns, inquiries and protests.

People in charge made huge mistakes that day, but if they had held up their hands and admitted them from day 1, they would have been forgivable.

The disgusting attempts to deflect blame and avoid responsibility which have been going on for decades are the unforgivable part of the whole story.
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Waz1892
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2015, 09:53:53 PM »

26 years to the day , not strictly true cause past midnight , grates me somewhat.

Was there that day in the Forest end and obviously saw pre and post match a lot of what happened.

We all know the police made mistakes and then tried to cover it up .

Just can't get my head round it being all blamed on them though.

26 years have passed , still haunts me that fateful day  ,  where is one's own responsibility in all of this.

So many variables led to what happened and not all was  David Duckenfields fault , just for opening the gates.

Hate to get in such an emotive subject where 96 people lost their lives but  it does not sit comfortable with me

Any such variables were ignored by "professionals" who's job it was to manage the day.

Nothing at all was majorly different from any other semi final in previous years. SYP and others didnt even learn from '88. It was mis-managed from the beginning.  The so called decison makers didn't have a clue, and when it began to go wrong and out of control, they compounded it all by making ill judged non thought out decisions.

What they did after was beyond any words i can think to describe.

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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2015, 10:15:27 PM »

I know that end of Hillsborough very, very well. Stood in that end and sat in the stand above with season tickets when home fans were using it in the 70's and early 80's.

If only the police had blocked entry to the tunnel to the central area and directed fans to the left and right then the disaster would have been avoided.

Tragic mistake and mismanagement.
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 10:18:20 PM »

Agree with u both but we still tend to ignore contributing factors.

To open the gates . Bad decision.

Liverpool  fans with no tickets . Bad decision

Liverpool fans , a minority , drunk . Bad decision .

Arriving late at the ground . Bad decision .

Herd mentality going through centre isle . Bad decision .

Not enough people in that section realising their actions would  cause injury/death to those innocents who had got there early to get a good position at the front. Bad decision.

More stewards and better stewarding around the 3 tunnels . Bad decision .

Loads of bad decisions led to that horrific day.

That's all I am saying .

The aftermath and cover up was shocking in the extreme and it's really depressing that people want to shift blame , lie , change witness statements ,  make excuses. What's wrong with holding you hand up and saying " I made a bad decision" and suffer the consequences.  
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RickBFA
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2015, 10:58:19 PM »

Agree with u both but we still tend to ignore contributing factors.

To open the gates . Bad decision.

Liverpool  fans with no tickets . Bad decision

Liverpool fans , a minority , drunk . Bad decision .

Arriving late at the ground . Bad decision .

Herd mentality going through centre isle . Bad decision .

Not enough people in that section realising their actions would  cause injury/death to those innocents who had got there early to get a good position at the front. Bad decision.

More stewards and better stewarding around the 3 tunnels . Bad decision .

Loads of bad decisions led to that horrific day.

That's all I am saying .

The aftermath and cover up was shocking in the extreme and it's really depressing that people want to shift blame , lie , change witness statements ,  make excuses. What's wrong with holding you hand up and saying " I made a bad decision" and suffer the consequences.  

Yes I agree with you, although some of those points aren't seen as politically correct to mention.

Add the fencing and pens to the situation and it produced that horrendous outcome.

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Waz1892
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2015, 11:31:30 PM »

Agree with u both but we still tend to ignore contributing factors.

To open the gates . Bad decision.

Liverpool  fans with no tickets . Bad decision

Liverpool fans , a minority , drunk . Bad decision .

Arriving late at the ground . Bad decision .

Herd mentality going through centre isle . Bad decision .

Not enough people in that section realising their actions would  cause injury/death to those innocents who had got there early to get a good position at the front. Bad decision.

More stewards and better stewarding around the 3 tunnels . Bad decision .

Loads of bad decisions led to that horrific day.

That's all I am saying .

The aftermath and cover up was shocking in the extreme and it's really depressing that people want to shift blame , lie , change witness statements ,  make excuses. What's wrong with holding you hand up and saying " I made a bad decision" and suffer the consequences.  

Contributing factors!?!?! Really.

If we say all the above were involved, the assumption must be the same for other games. Ticketless fans, minority drunk ones, ones arriving after KO.  The only difference then were the actions, decision making and planning of those in charge.

And sorry, to say opening the gate was a "bad decision" along with arriving late was a same and similar "bad decision" is shameful and ridic.

They lost control well before that rememeber. To try to get an acceptance of blame shared between SYP and a few worse for where, late fans is equally deploable.

I think you need to accept it was an avoidable event, and the only people to blame were those in charge.  I'm staggering it is even in doubt still.

The events are not in question. The blame neither.


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The Camel
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2015, 11:42:09 PM »

Has it ever been estimated how many ticketless Liverpool fans were outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles that day before the gates were opened?

Although all the people were trying to get in the middle pen, from the tv pictures I saw the other 2 pens were pretty full too.

So clearly there were some people inside the ground without tickets, or else this tragedy would have happened years earlier at another big game.
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Waz1892
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2015, 11:51:50 PM »

Has it ever been estimated how many ticketless Liverpool fans were outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles that day before the gates were opened?

Although all the people were trying to get in the middle pen, from the tv pictures I saw the other 2 pens were pretty full too.

So clearly there were some people inside the ground without tickets, or else this tragedy would have happened years earlier at another big game.

Pens 1 and 4 around the build up were relatively empty if I recall correctly. That is my visiom and own memory

Never seen or heard a official figures around potential ticketless fans, but i see no reason why more would be around in '89 than '88.  Or any other semi final previous.

Events way before that didnt help things when it started to go wrong.

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The Camel
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2015, 12:21:36 AM »

Has it ever been estimated how many ticketless Liverpool fans were outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles that day before the gates were opened?

Although all the people were trying to get in the middle pen, from the tv pictures I saw the other 2 pens were pretty full too.

So clearly there were some people inside the ground without tickets, or else this tragedy would have happened years earlier at another big game.

Pens 1 and 4 around the build up were relatively empty if I recall correctly. That is my visiom and own memory

Never seen or heard a official figures around potential ticketless fans, but i see no reason why more would be around in '89 than '88.  Or any other semi final previous.

Events way before that didnt help things when it started to go wrong.



In no way am I victim or Liverpool fan blaming.

But there must have been a reason the gates were opened when they were never opened in all semi finals (and other big matches) played at Hillsborough before.

Logically there must have been a bigger crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles than seen before. And there must have been a reason for this.

Did Liverpool fans arrive at the ground later? Were there traffic problems that day? Or were there more ticketless fans than ever before?
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2015, 03:37:45 AM »

This should not be a politically correct debate.
But...
There were Contributing factors, all of them happen rightly or wrongly at every big
Game I attend both pre and post 89.
Late arrivals
Drunk Fans
Ticketless fans
The above still happens today.
We cannot blame Liverpool fans, they acted no differently to any other clubs fans.
The WYP must take the majority of the blame as they did act differently to other forces that policed
Football matches in the late 80s.
What grinds me still to this day is the deceit & lies after the event to protect a few people.


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Waz1892
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2015, 07:59:40 AM »

Has it ever been estimated how many ticketless Liverpool fans were outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles that day before the gates were opened?

Although all the people were trying to get in the middle pen, from the tv pictures I saw the other 2 pens were pretty full too.

So clearly there were some people inside the ground without tickets, or else this tragedy would have happened years earlier at another big game.

Pens 1 and 4 around the build up were relatively empty if I recall correctly. That is my visiom and own memory

Never seen or heard a official figures around potential ticketless fans, but i see no reason why more would be around in '89 than '88.  Or any other semi final previous.

Events way before that didnt help things when it started to go wrong.



In no way am I victim or Liverpool fan blaming.

But there must have been a reason the gates were opened when they were never opened in all semi finals (and other big matches) played at Hillsborough before.

Logically there must have been a bigger crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles than seen before. And there must have been a reason for this.

Did Liverpool fans arrive at the ground later? Were there traffic problems that day? Or were there more ticketless fans than ever before?

I never said you were blaming anyone, sorry if it came across that way.  However both the above post and opening post, by implying there were other factors on that day, different to other games, to me is implying the blame, whether all or in part, was on the actions of some of the fans on that day.

That is simply not true or  acceptable imo.  If SYP not only managed the game better, or not crimnally covered their actions up, it would have been completly difference.   Any discussion please remember about high number of drunk/ticketless, was all part of the cover-up spin the authorities did. Without all that crap, it wouldnt be part of the discussion.

Sooner they get sent down to rot, the better.
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2015, 09:35:50 AM »

 Obviously the key "bad decision" was to open the gates.

I believe everyone would agree with this.

We do not know what would have happened if he had not done that and Mr Duckenfields preparation prior
 to the match left a lot to be desired , especially from a senior officer.

Every point I made about " bad decisions " is true. How much each individual one contributed to 96 deaths is almost
impossible to quantify. Some might be less than 1% but from what I saw that day the collective "bad decisions" all 
 had an effect , however small.
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Waz1892
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2015, 10:30:33 AM »

Obviously the key "bad decision" was to open the gates.

I believe everyone would agree with this.

We do not know what would have happened if he had not done that and Mr Duckenfields preparation prior
 to the match left a lot to be desired , especially from a senior officer.

Every point I made about " bad decisions " is true. How much each individual one contributed to 96 deaths is almost
impossible to quantify. Some might be less than 1% but from what I saw that day the collective "bad decisions" all  
 had an effect , however small.

I simply couldn't disagree more.  Not one fan on that day, contributed to any of the 96 deaths no matter what "bad decision" they did or didn't make.  

It is like you're saying (in a less extreme way granted)  the butterfly wings flapping has an effect on the other side of the world theory.  By being they, doing whatever, they contributed to 96 deaths.

We are never going to agree (or rather I will not accept the points or argument stated) so with respect I'm not intending to read further, as I'll just more annoyed!

Like you I was in attendance on that day, but as a liverpool fan, so I think our versions will be very different.

Enjoy your day.

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bookiebasher
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2015, 10:43:25 AM »

Obviously the key "bad decision" was to open the gates.

I believe everyone would agree with this.

We do not know what would have happened if he had not done that and Mr Duckenfields preparation prior
 to the match left a lot to be desired , especially from a senior officer.

Every point I made about " bad decisions " is true. How much each individual one contributed to 96 deaths is almost
impossible to quantify. Some might be less than 1% but from what I saw that day the collective "bad decisions" all  
 had an effect , however small.

I simply couldn't disagree more.  Not one fan on that day, contributed to any of the 96 deaths no matter what "bad decision" they did or didn't make.  

It is like you're saying (in a less extreme way granted)  the butterfly wings flapping has an effect on the other side of the world theory.  By being they, doing whatever, they contributed to 96 deaths.

We are never going to agree (or rather I will not accept the points or argument stated) so with respect I'm not intending to read further, as I'll just more annoyed!

Like you I was in attendance on that day, but as a liverpool fan, so I think our versions will be very different.

Enjoy your day.



If you are saying the actions of the Liverpool fans that day had no effect on 96 people losing their lives then you are wrong. The combination of factors brought about the tragic consequences on that day. Not one single action is 100%
responsible for it. That is the truth.

We are all adults , we all have our own decisions to make and take responsibility for.

Enjoy your day too sir.
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