Hillsborough disaster

[TightEnd]

I simply couldn't disagree more.  Not one fan on that day, contributed to any of the 96 deaths no matter what "bad decision" they did or didn't make.   

I am sorry i just can't agree with this. I understand you are a Lverpool fan and cannot be expected to be balanced and in no way would i seek to defend the police whose actions on the day and subsequently have been disgraceful

what bookiebasher says is correct though, by their behaviour some fans exacerbated the situation. Any fans of any club at the time would have done, most likely

My other half at the time was at the game, in the other end as a Forest fan, and it stayed with her since. Some of the things she described to me about the behaviour of a minority of fans on that day that she saw before the game were really eye-opening

as i say though, it wasn't atypical of football fans at the time

it has become almost completely unacceptable to question anything of the fans at Hillsborough, as if in some way that will detract from the police on the day and since. It doesn't at all 

[Waz1892]

I simply couldn't disagree more.  Not one fan on that day, contributed to any of the 96 deaths no matter what "bad decision" they did or didn't make.   

I am sorry i just can't agree with this. I understand you are a Lverpool fan and cannot be expected to be balanced and in no way would i seek to defend the police whose actions on the day and subsequently have been disgraceful

what bookiebasher says is correct though, by their behaviour some fans exacerbated the situation. Any fans of any club at the time would have done, most likely

My other half at the time was at the game, in the other end as a Forest fan, and it stayed with her since. Some of the things she described to me about the behaviour of a minority of fans on that day that she saw before the game were really eye-opening

as i say though, it wasn't atypical of football fans at the time

it has become almost completely unacceptable to question anything of the fans at Hillsborough, as if in some way that will detract from the police on the day and since. It doesn't at all 

100% acknowledge I'm 100% bias.  It is a very emotive subject for most involved.

I don't pretend to think the fans on the day were impeccably behaved, but they were, as you state yourself, no different to any other football fan of that era, and thus behaved no different (overall) than that of any other group in a similar game.  So by the very fact the situ happened, and in the manner it did, it was solely down to how the game was planned, actioned, implemented, and then the (wrong) decisions made by the (wrong) people in the (wrong) jobs.  Which again goes way back before the event itself.

If there was a hugely abnormal amount of drunks/ticketless/late fans arriving which caught the authorities by surprise, I'd argue then, it was and is the job of those in authority to plan for most reasonable scenarios. Drunk late football fans in the late 80's was expected at most big games I'd suggest.  It even happened 12months before.

I respect both you and bookie opinions and views of course, and I know 2 sides to most discussions, but I do struggle to be objective on this, which is my own downfall and fault I accept.

[TightEnd]

"If there was a hugely abnormal amount of drunks/ticketless/late fans arriving which caught the authorities by surprise"

that was the case wasn't it?

again, i am in no way defending the planning before, actions during and justifications afterwards

[bookiebasher]

As adults we should accept responsibility for everything we do in life.

A gate has been opened , your decision to do what you want after that.

Now if your decision making is impaired by alcohol , the lateness of your arrival or just
the excitement of the game , why is it someone else is 100% to blame.

If it had been Forest fans at the wrong end and I was a part of the tragic events and managed
to survive I would feel I contributed in some way to the tragic events , however small my part in
it might have been.

I have never seen any contrition , just vitriol and blame.

[The Camel]

Obviously the key "bad decision" was to open the gates.

I believe everyone would agree with this.

We do not know what would have happened if he had not done that and Mr Duckenfields preparation prior
 to the match left a lot to be desired , especially from a senior officer.

Every point I made about " bad decisions " is true. How much each individual one contributed to 96 deaths is almost
impossible to quantify. Some might be less than 1% but from what I saw that day the collective "bad decisions" all  
 had an effect , however small.

I simply couldn't disagree more.  Not one fan on that day, contributed to any of the 96 deaths no matter what "bad decision" they did or didn't make.  

It is like you're saying (in a less extreme way granted)  the butterfly wings flapping has an effect on the other side of the world theory.  By being they, doing whatever, they contributed to 96 deaths.

We are never going to agree (or rather I will not accept the points or argument stated) so with respect I'm not intending to read further, as I'll just more annoyed!

Like you I was in attendance on that day, but as a liverpool fan, so I think our versions will be very different.

Enjoy your day.

So are you are saying - any fan who didn't have a ticket, that ran through the open gate to watch a game he hadn't paid to see, holds zero blame for the disaster?

[The Camel]

BTW - If I was outside a ground and there was an open gate to a match I was desperate to watch, I would almost certainly pop through it to try and get a free look.

I don't "blame" any ticketless fans for running in, but we must accept at the bottom line, that was an illegal act.

[The Camel]

Although equally, unless I lived 100 yards from the ground, I would not turn up for a match I didn't have a ticket for.

[DungBeetle]

"If there was a hugely abnormal amount of drunks/ticketless/late fans arriving which caught the authorities by surprise"

that was the case wasn't it?

again, i am in no way defending the planning before, actions during and justifications afterwards

I'm not sure it was the case.  In terms of tickets the side pens at Hillsborough were relatively empty and the problem was everyone getting funnelled into the same middle pens?  Think you can see it on here. 
https://thegreatcritique.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/half-empty-wing-pen-14-46.jpg

[bookiebasher]

"Like you I was in attendance on that day, but as a liverpool fan, so I think our versions will be very different."

That statement somewhat disappoints me. It does not matter who we were supporting and it should not
make a difference on our version of events.

96 people lost their lives , does not matter who they supported or where they came from .

That day haunts every human being who was there that fateful day. I do not feel any less sorrow for the
victims just because I was there supporting an opposing team.

Our versions are not very different because I support Forest , I can assure you.

Our versions are very different because I can see that it was a certain unique set of circumstances culminating in such large numbers losing their lives.

[bookiebasher]

"If there was a hugely abnormal amount of drunks/ticketless/late fans arriving which caught the authorities by surprise"

that was the case wasn't it?

again, i am in no way defending the planning before, actions during and justifications afterwards

I'm not sure it was the case.  In terms of tickets the side pens at Hillsborough were relatively empty and the problem was everyone getting funnelled into the same middle pens?  Think you can see it on here.  
https://thegreatcritique.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/half-empty-wing-pen-14-46.jpg

There were a number of fans without tickets , hard to put a figure on it , but I can remember being asked on numerous occasions walking to the ground if I had any spare tickets by Liverpool supporters , although that was pretty standard in any sell out game in those days.

What impact that had on the crush at the gates and whether it was premeditated one will never know.

[Waz1892]

"Like you I was in attendance on that day, but as a liverpool fan, so I think our versions will be very different."

That statement somewhat disappoints me. It does not matter who we were supporting and it should not
make a difference on our version of events.

96 people lost their lives , does not matter who they supported or where they came from .

That day haunts every human being who was there that fateful day. I do not feel any less sorrow for the
victims just because I was there supporting an opposing team.

Our versions are not very different because I support Forest , I can assure you.

Our versions are very different because I can see that it was a certain unique set of circumstances culminating in such large numbers losing their lives.

Sorry to disappoint. But was i more meaning i see it from a less impartial view being a liverpool fan. I can't ever believe or will never accept in anyway that the whole thing was down to nothing other than a complete farce by authorities in the build up, planning and the day itself.

The stadia licence
Sheffield council
SYP
Duckenfield getting the job
His pre planning, or lack of it
Matchday planning
Day of match

I could go on and on. 

If they hadn't messed every aspect of the above (which isn't exhaustive) it would have so different.

I dare say (i wasnt at '88) it was similar situ, ticketless/late fans in that year and in other years.

Inquiries, reports, from Taylor to HIP all revolke any blame whatsoever on the fans at the game.

[RickBFA]

Obviously the key "bad decision" was to open the gates.

I believe everyone would agree with this.

We do not know what would have happened if he had not done that and Mr Duckenfields preparation prior
 to the match left a lot to be desired , especially from a senior officer.

Every point I made about " bad decisions " is true. How much each individual one contributed to 96 deaths is almost
impossible to quantify. Some might be less than 1% but from what I saw that day the collective "bad decisions" all 
 had an effect , however small.

I think the key bad decision was not blocking the entry to the tunnel to the central pen.

There is a big open area inside the area behind the gates, the police could have stopped (or at least tried) to stop fans going into the central area. The entry to the tunnel by its nature is small and could have been blocked.

Opening the gates was not the key bad decision for me.

[kinboshi]

FFS, there's some fucking appalling comments on this thread from people I'd expect far better from.

Seriously, blaming drunk fans without tickets for the death of the 96. You turn up at any football match, rock concert, or any other public gathering and those in charge have a responsibilty. It's like blaming the Bradford fans for not exciting the ground sensibly because they'd had a drink or two, or had entered without a ticket.

[kinboshi]

There were more drunken and ticketless fans at that match than other FA Cup semi finals?

Show me that evidence.

[kinboshi]

There were other semi finals of the FA Cup played at grounds that were deemed unsuitable like Hillsborough was?