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Author Topic: Hillsborough disaster  (Read 6081 times)
bookiebasher
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« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2015, 09:44:36 AM »

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault. 

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense


Waz  , I understand it has played on your mind all day . It has played on my mind for 26 years.

I accept your opinion and we obviously disagree on a very sensitive issue. I did not want to insult  anyone and have
chosen my words carefully.

Just because I do not agree with the majority does not mean I have "to see sense".

I have to be true to myself and say what I believe and what I saw that day..
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Waz1892
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2015, 10:01:00 AM »

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault. 

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense


Waz  , I understand it has played on your mind all day . It has played on my mind for 26 years.

I accept your opinion and we obviously disagree on a very sensitive issue. I did not want to insult  anyone and have
chosen my words carefully.

Just because I do not agree with the majority does not mean I have "to see sense".

I have to be true to myself and say what I believe and what I saw that day..

Your ignorance and views played on my mind, so OK I'll bite as you've mentioned it twice now; what did you see on that day around the ground, that you've never seen before at a big game that gives you the opinion you have still 26years later which is against all known facts by legal minds, witnesses, reports and inqueries etc etc, where you still think a number of fans on the day actually phyiscally contributed towards 96 deaths.

It is beyond belief people who say they have an understanding beyond the headlines can still have such views

I am really trying to not go over the line as i respect Tikay and Tighty and Blonde.
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The Baron
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« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2015, 10:02:49 AM »

Going to the stadium on the day of an incident makes us an expert? Or chatting to someone who went? "I went (or knew someone who did) so I know its a fact" is what's being stated. By two liked and respected people.

I didn't go, but I'd encourage readers to follow the facts (and in the reports more recently coming out, they are facts) that the police and their cover up is the issue, the major issue and the only issue here. Being sat at the other end having been asked for spares by scousers who've had a few apparently means more to some.

If the posters in question can't see that their posts are insulting to families whove spent the best part of 3 decades showing that the blame does not sit with the fans, then I am shocked. I too think there are some lets downs ITT.

Giving an view, however politely and sincerely, that is clearly going to insult people is just bad form imo.

Oh and I've gotta stay true to myself by posting this, or somink.
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« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2015, 10:18:08 AM »

Going to the stadium on the day of an incident makes us an expert? Or chatting to someone who went? "I went (or knew someone who did) so I know its a fact" is what's being stated. By two liked and respected people.

I didn't go, but I'd encourage readers to follow the facts (and in the reports more recently coming out, they are facts) that the police and their cover up is the issue, the major issue and the only issue here. Being sat at the other end having been asked for spares by scousers who've had a few apparently means more to some.

If the posters in question can't see that their posts are insulting to families whove spent the best part of 3 decades showing that the blame does not sit with the fans, then I am shocked. I too think there are some lets downs ITT.

Giving an view, however politely and sincerely, that is clearly going to insult people is just bad form imo.

Oh and I've gotta stay true to myself by posting this, or somink.

I know the Independent panel report recently exonerated the fans

I know the Police behaviour and decisions on the day, and the subsequent cover up, was disgraceful. It is rightly and clearly the cause of the disaster, their actions on the day

There's no lack of respect from me towards the families who have campaigned long and hard since 1989

However the Taylor report stated that a minority of fan behaviour was an "exacerbating factor". The HIP certainly tells us that the causative effect of this was insignificant though.

Trying to find nuance on here around these issues without people getting upset looks understandably difficult.

   



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The Baron
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« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2015, 10:33:06 AM »

Going to the stadium on the day of an incident makes us an expert? Or chatting to someone who went? "I went (or knew someone who did) so I know its a fact" is what's being stated. By two liked and respected people.

I didn't go, but I'd encourage readers to follow the facts (and in the reports more recently coming out, they are facts) that the police and their cover up is the issue, the major issue and the only issue here. Being sat at the other end having been asked for spares by scousers who've had a few apparently means more to some.

If the posters in question can't see that their posts are insulting to families whove spent the best part of 3 decades showing that the blame does not sit with the fans, then I am shocked. I too think there are some lets downs ITT.

Giving an view, however politely and sincerely, that is clearly going to insult people is just bad form imo.

Oh and I've gotta stay true to myself by posting this, or somink.

I know the Independent panel report recently exonerated the fans

I know the Police behaviour and decisions on the day, and the subsequent cover up, was disgraceful. It is rightly and clearly the cause of the disaster, their actions on the day

There's no lack of respect from me towards the families who have campaigned long and hard since 1989

However the Taylor report stated that a minority of fan behaviour was an "exacerbating factor". The HIP certainly tells us that the causative effect of this was insignificant though.

Trying to find nuance on here around these issues without people getting upset looks understandably difficult.

   





Rich a poster has come on at around the time of the anniversary saying that the recent reports exonerating the fans doesn't sit comfortably with him. I guess that there's a debate here, (if we really must have it) but surely you can see this OP is going to offend and that defending it with "well I need to stay true to myself" after posting it around the anniversary. Just lol.

I have heard from HJC and HFSG, and I, like Kin, have spent a long time trying to understand what happened, and can only imagine what people have been through.

Hearing that your other half saw things that were an eye opener (may as well have stuck an exclamation in there and a wink), is that finding nuance?


Please don't now shift the blame on those of us now getting frustrated.

You are probably my favourite poster on blonde mate, but on this one we're miles apart.
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2015, 10:38:32 AM »

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault. 

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense


Waz  , I understand it has played on your mind all day . It has played on my mind for 26 years.

I accept your opinion and we obviously disagree on a very sensitive issue. I did not want to insult  anyone and have
chosen my words carefully.

Just because I do not agree with the majority does not mean I have "to see sense".

I have to be true to myself and say what I believe and what I saw that day..

Your ignorance and views played on my mind, so OK I'll bite as you've mentioned it twice now; what did you see on that day around the ground, that you've never seen before at a big game that gives you the opinion you have still 26years later which is against all known facts by legal minds, witnesses, reports and inqueries etc etc, where you still think a number of fans on the day actually phyiscally contributed towards 96 deaths.

It is beyond belief people who say they have an understanding beyond the headlines can still have such views

I am really trying to not go over the line as i respect Tikay and Tighty and Blonde.

I am at work now and short staffed so will not post/comment until later tonight when I get home.

Suffice to say I will not get into specifics on what I saw that day , it would serve no purpose and only lead to more
arguments and people getting upset.

You say it was 100% the police's fault , I say it wasn't. Stated my reasons why on numerous occasions.



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Waz1892
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2015, 10:54:51 AM »

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault. 

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense


Waz  , I understand it has played on your mind all day . It has played on my mind for 26 years.

I accept your opinion and we obviously disagree on a very sensitive issue. I did not want to insult  anyone and have
chosen my words carefully.

Just because I do not agree with the majority does not mean I have "to see sense".

I have to be true to myself and say what I believe and what I saw that day..

Your ignorance and views played on my mind, so OK I'll bite as you've mentioned it twice now; what did you see on that day around the ground, that you've never seen before at a big game that gives you the opinion you have still 26years later which is against all known facts by legal minds, witnesses, reports and inqueries etc etc, where you still think a number of fans on the day actually phyiscally contributed towards 96 deaths.

It is beyond belief people who say they have an understanding beyond the headlines can still have such views

I am really trying to not go over the line as i respect Tikay and Tighty and Blonde.

I am at work now and short staffed so will not post/comment until later tonight when I get home.

Suffice to say I will not get into specifics on what I saw that day , it would serve no purpose and only lead to more
arguments and people getting upset.

You say it was 100% the police's fault , I say it wasn't. Stated my reasons why on numerous occasions.


Faor enough about the details, pointless I'm sure, but you raised it Your reasons go against everything that has been written factually about, studied, and confirmed beyond all reasonable doubt. I maintain i found it staggering some still have views of your nature. It is simple breath-taking such ignorance still rears its ugly head.
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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2015, 01:26:31 PM »

Going to the stadium on the day of an incident makes us an expert? Or chatting to someone who went? "I went (or knew someone who did) so I know its a fact" is what's being stated. By two liked and respected people.

I didn't go, but I'd encourage readers to follow the facts (and in the reports more recently coming out, they are facts) that the police and their cover up is the issue, the major issue and the only issue here. Being sat at the other end having been asked for spares by scousers who've had a few apparently means more to some.

If the posters in question can't see that their posts are insulting to families whove spent the best part of 3 decades showing that the blame does not sit with the fans, then I am shocked. I too think there are some lets downs ITT.

Giving an view, however politely and sincerely, that is clearly going to insult people is just bad form imo.

Oh and I've gotta stay true to myself by posting this, or somink.

I know the Independent panel report recently exonerated the fans

I know the Police behaviour and decisions on the day, and the subsequent cover up, was disgraceful. It is rightly and clearly the cause of the disaster, their actions on the day

There's no lack of respect from me towards the families who have campaigned long and hard since 1989

However the Taylor report stated that a minority of fan behaviour was an "exacerbating factor". The HIP certainly tells us that the causative effect of this was insignificant though.

Trying to find nuance on here around these issues without people getting upset looks understandably difficult.

   





I think you are spot on Tighty.

It's such an emotive subject.

It does sometimes feel like it is so politically sensitive that people are now afraid to air their views.

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david3103
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2015, 01:45:13 PM »

OK, firstly, the actions of Duckenfield were the direct cause of the deaths and the subsequent attempts to cover for him are a disgrace.
But to absolve the late arriving fans of any blame seems disingenuous at best.
There are always a variety of factors at play, as seen a few years earlier when, an official report found that...

"blame should not rest solely with the English fans, and that some culpability lay with the police and authorities."

A lot of people allowed that incident to colour their view of Hillsborough, me included. I'm ashamed of that now. There has been a long fight for justice and I'm pleased that it is now being delivered.

The 96 were all innocent victims of a foreseeable chain of events that SYP should have handled differently. The fans involved in those events at the Leppings Lane gate could have acted differently but it was unsurprising that they acted as they did and it's inappropriate to blame them.
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2015, 03:09:31 PM »

Going to the stadium on the day of an incident makes us an expert? Or chatting to someone who went? "I went (or knew someone who did) so I know its a fact" is what's being stated. By two liked and respected people.

I didn't go, but I'd encourage readers to follow the facts (and in the reports more recently coming out, they are facts) that the police and their cover up is the issue, the major issue and the only issue here. Being sat at the other end having been asked for spares by scousers who've had a few apparently means more to some.

If the posters in question can't see that their posts are insulting to families whove spent the best part of 3 decades showing that the blame does not sit with the fans, then I am shocked. I too think there are some lets downs ITT.

Giving an view, however politely and sincerely, that is clearly going to insult people is just bad form imo.

Oh and I've gotta stay true to myself by posting this, or somink.

I know the Independent panel report recently exonerated the fans

I know the Police behaviour and decisions on the day, and the subsequent cover up, was disgraceful. It is rightly and clearly the cause of the disaster, their actions on the day

There's no lack of respect from me towards the families who have campaigned long and hard since 1989

However the Taylor report stated that a minority of fan behaviour was an "exacerbating factor". The HIP certainly tells us that the causative effect of this was insignificant though.

Trying to find nuance on here around these issues without people getting upset looks understandably difficult.

   

THIS............



I am Shocked people still have this view that Liverpool fans to a degree were to Blame for the Deaths.

Quite Fucking Extraordinary !!!






Rich a poster has come on at around the time of the anniversary saying that the recent reports exonerating the fans doesn't sit comfortably with him. I guess that there's a debate here, (if we really must have it) but surely you can see this OP is going to offend and that defending it with "well I need to stay true to myself" after posting it around the anniversary. Just lol.

I have heard from HJC and HFSG, and I, like Kin, have spent a long time trying to understand what happened, and can only imagine what people have been through.

Hearing that your other half saw things that were an eye opener (may as well have stuck an exclamation in there and a wink), is that finding nuance?


Please don't now shift the blame on those of us now getting frustrated.

You are probably my favourite poster on blonde mate, but on this one we're miles apart.
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2015, 09:07:23 PM »

Still at work , been a long day , very hard to concentrate with the bad blood on here ,
so here goes , deep breath....

I am not as articulate as Tighty , Tikay or Kin but on the other hand I am not
"ignorant" and do "live in the real world"

My second post was insensitive , poorly written and open to a wide interpretation
of what I was trying to say. I do apologise for offending people.

Waz replied saying that I had said arriving late was a same and similar bad
decision as opening the gate. Could you please explain why you came to that
conclusion ?

You also indicated that I thought Liverpool's fans behaviour was different to other
games. Again where in my post's do I say that ?
If by me saying there were a unique set of circumstances on that day , you have
misinterpreted what I meant.

I was 26 at the time and had already been to all of Forest's European and Domestic
Cup Finals including many semi finals. Still vividly remember the replay at Old Trafford
when the svelt like figure of John O'Hare went storming down the middle for an obvious
penalty , well , obvious at the time.

So I was not green behind the ears and knew what to expect when attending high profile ,
sell out events involving two top teams.

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

Would I feel guilty , would I have thought "if only "

No one can be sure unless it actually happens to you.

Fire away but please keep it civil , Tighty and Tikay have enough to do without looking at
this thread every 5 minutes to see if it needs to be locked.

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The Baron
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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2015, 10:17:21 AM »

OK, firstly, the actions of Duckenfield were the direct cause of the deaths and the subsequent attempts to cover for him are a disgrace.
But to absolve the late arriving fans of any blame seems disingenuous at best.
There are always a variety of factors at play, as seen a few years earlier when, an official report found that...

"blame should not rest solely with the English fans, and that some culpability lay with the police and authorities."

A lot of people allowed that incident to colour their view of Hillsborough, me included. I'm ashamed of that now. There has been a long fight for justice and I'm pleased that it is now being delivered.

The 96 were all innocent victims of a foreseeable chain of events that SYP should have handled differently. The fans involved in those events at the Leppings Lane gate could have acted differently but it was unsurprising that they acted as they did and it's inappropriate to blame them.


Great post, thanks for being honest.

This thread shows that the actions of the police and the media after the event will never truly be undone. I'm glad they have when it comes to yourself.
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2015, 10:36:14 AM »

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

Would you like to answer my question Baron or are you just going to say lol.

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The Baron
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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2015, 11:05:21 AM »

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

Would you like to answer my question Baron or are you just going to say lol.



Bookie, I think your last two posts are lots better than your first two. But I think the point is being missed.

If I were a family member of someone who had died (hypothetically) do you think I'd have questioned what your asking many, many years ago? In fact don't you think I'd have spoken to the fans who went into that middle pen? Do you think id have not spent years trying to work out who was responsible. If id met some of those people do you think id have asked them why they went without a ticket, ask them if they tried to back out of the pen, asked them what it was like and tried to measure their guilt? Do you think you're the first person to ask? If you can assign a minimal % of the disaster on the fans what does it prove? That you're clever? Or that the police are less to blame?

Do you think id then like to wait two and a half decades to finally get to the truth and then be happy to hear on an open forum the view of someone who sat at the other end essentially questioning the level of responsibility that sits with individual fans on the anniversary of the event?

If you want my deeply personal opinion, it's in line with David's post above. But again, I'm not sure why you would need it.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 11:07:36 AM by The Baron » Logged

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bookiebasher
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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2015, 11:32:20 AM »

If you look at all my posts on this thread I have only used the word blame once.

That was in a paragraph when I was discussing the Police cover up.

Waz says it was 100% the police's fault that 96 people lost their lives.

That is clearly wrong. The HIP report indicates that is wrong saying 41 lives
may have been saved with a better response from the Emergency Services.

The HIP report says the Police action was the direct cause.

Those at the top choose their words very carefully, far better than me but my
initial post , written after a few beers , on an emotional day , I stand by.

Been in many pubs and the topic comes up , always stayed tight lipped because
it is, as people have alluded to, "politically incorrect" to air your thought's if it goes
against the grain.

Needed to get it off my chest , the debate has gone better than I thought although
I do not know what has been deleted  Wink
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