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Woodsey
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« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2015, 09:48:53 AM »

The English flag might be recovered from those groups if it was used more, especially by organizations.

I'm working at the local Council at the moment and they sometimes fly a line of flags outside. Happened twice last week on St George's Day and the Queen's Birthday and again today for some reason.

There are twelve flags - the Union Jack plus the flags of Germany, France, Scotland, Wales, Australia, Canada, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Nigeria and Malta. I have no idea how they have settled on those, but there seems to be one missing. Even on St George's Day, we had all the others but no English flag.

Probably because some bellend would find a reason why it's racist to put the English flag up.
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david3103
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« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2015, 10:03:42 AM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

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The Camel
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« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2015, 02:18:04 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?
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jakally
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« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2015, 02:22:45 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.



The world cup / major sporting events are vastly different to a cold Tuesday in March.
I'm like Keith. If I see the English flag outside someone's house, I'm odds on they are a far right bigot.
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david3103
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« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2015, 02:39:11 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?

Are you proud of any of your heritage Keith?

My parents were both very loyal supporters of the Boys' Brigade and Girls' Brigade. They gave countless hours in providing a purpose for the young people in their care.
They were solid church going folk and spent a lot of their lives helping others.
Dad was still active in these regards into his eighties.
I'm proud of what they did.

I'm also proud to be part of the nation that gave the world so much.
Proud of Magna Carta, proud that our Parliament provided the model for much of the world.
Proud of Shakespeare.
Proud that our little country was the foremost innovator in the Industrial Revolution.
Proud of Churchhill and proud that this small nation opened it's doors to the world.

I'm proud to be British too. Proud of the part that the Scots played in creating so much of the modern world. Proud that the Irish played their part and the Welsh.

So why shouldn't the St George Flag and the Union Flag be flown by those of us who have that pride? Why shouldn't we reclaim them from the bigots, the racists and the thugs?
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2015, 02:52:46 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?

I suppose you can argue that you form part of a well functioning society - one that pays tax, looks after it's ill and creates an infrastructure for industry and innovation (I'm not arguing England does this by the way!).   If that is the case then I think you can be proud of being a small cog in whatever nation you are?
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2015, 03:05:33 PM »

I never celebrate St George's Day, but some of the posts in this thread are odd.

To say people can't be proud of being English because of the slave trade, is no different than saying the Germans or South Africans can't ever be proud due to history.

Different generations shouldn't have to bear the weight of their ancestors if their countries are now vibrant.

Which countries are allowed to proud?  Which ones have a clean slate?
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The Camel
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« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2015, 03:45:37 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?

Are you proud of any of your heritage Keith?

My parents were both very loyal supporters of the Boys' Brigade and Girls' Brigade. They gave countless hours in providing a purpose for the young people in their care.
They were solid church going folk and spent a lot of their lives helping others.
Dad was still active in these regards into his eighties.
I'm proud of what they did.

I'm also proud to be part of the nation that gave the world so much.
Proud of Magna Carta, proud that our Parliament provided the model for much of the world.
Proud of Shakespeare.
Proud that our little country was the foremost innovator in the Industrial Revolution.
Proud of Churchhill and proud that this small nation opened it's doors to the world.


I'm proud to be British too. Proud of the part that the Scots played in creating so much of the modern world. Proud that the Irish played their part and the Welsh.

So why shouldn't the St George Flag and the Union Flag be flown by those of us who have that pride? Why shouldn't we reclaim them from the bigots, the racists and the thugs?


I'm proud of *my* heritage, yes.

And anyone is quite entitled to be proud of the good deeds of their parents/family.

But why would you be "proud" of the bolded bit? They hadn't nothing to do with you.

In the dictionary "proud" is defined as "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.".

I respect the work of Shakespeare, I'm impressed at the industrial revolution and although he was probably a bit of dick, I quite admire Churchill's leadership during the war.

But I am not proud of any of them.

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« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2015, 03:46:35 PM »

I never celebrate St George's Day, but some of the posts in this thread are odd.

To say people can't be proud of being English because of the slave trade, is no different than saying the Germans or South Africans can't ever be proud due to history.

Different generations shouldn't have to bear the weight of their ancestors if their countries are now vibrant.

Which countries are allowed to proud?  Which ones have a clean slate?

Pretty sure Germans and South Africans aren't proud of the history of their country.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2015, 03:47:42 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?
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The Camel
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« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2015, 03:52:27 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2015, 04:01:52 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?

Are you proud of any of your heritage Keith?

My parents were both very loyal supporters of the Boys' Brigade and Girls' Brigade. They gave countless hours in providing a purpose for the young people in their care.
They were solid church going folk and spent a lot of their lives helping others.
Dad was still active in these regards into his eighties.
I'm proud of what they did.

I'm also proud to be part of the nation that gave the world so much.
Proud of Magna Carta, proud that our Parliament provided the model for much of the world.
Proud of Shakespeare.
Proud that our little country was the foremost innovator in the Industrial Revolution.
Proud of Churchhill and proud that this small nation opened it's doors to the world.


I'm proud to be British too. Proud of the part that the Scots played in creating so much of the modern world. Proud that the Irish played their part and the Welsh.

So why shouldn't the St George Flag and the Union Flag be flown by those of us who have that pride? Why shouldn't we reclaim them from the bigots, the racists and the thugs?


I'm proud of *my* heritage, yes.

And anyone is quite entitled to be proud of the good deeds of their parents/family.

But why would you be "proud" of the bolded bit? They hadn't nothing to do with you.

In the dictionary "proud" is defined as "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.".

I respect the work of Shakespeare, I'm impressed at the industrial revolution and although he was probably a bit of dick, I quite admire Churchill's leadership during the war.

But I am not proud of any of them.

I don't think patriotism can really be described rationally, I'd have thought it's similar to the idea that people have when they follow a sports team. The results have zero, or at best nearly zero, to do with them - doesn't stop them being proud of "their" team's results.
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« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2015, 04:04:57 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.
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The Camel
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« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2015, 04:06:46 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?

Are you proud of any of your heritage Keith?

My parents were both very loyal supporters of the Boys' Brigade and Girls' Brigade. They gave countless hours in providing a purpose for the young people in their care.
They were solid church going folk and spent a lot of their lives helping others.
Dad was still active in these regards into his eighties.
I'm proud of what they did.

I'm also proud to be part of the nation that gave the world so much.
Proud of Magna Carta, proud that our Parliament provided the model for much of the world.
Proud of Shakespeare.
Proud that our little country was the foremost innovator in the Industrial Revolution.
Proud of Churchhill and proud that this small nation opened it's doors to the world.


I'm proud to be British too. Proud of the part that the Scots played in creating so much of the modern world. Proud that the Irish played their part and the Welsh.

So why shouldn't the St George Flag and the Union Flag be flown by those of us who have that pride? Why shouldn't we reclaim them from the bigots, the racists and the thugs?


I'm proud of *my* heritage, yes.

And anyone is quite entitled to be proud of the good deeds of their parents/family.

But why would you be "proud" of the bolded bit? They hadn't nothing to do with you.

In the dictionary "proud" is defined as "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.".

I respect the work of Shakespeare, I'm impressed at the industrial revolution and although he was probably a bit of dick, I quite admire Churchill's leadership during the war.

But I am not proud of any of them.

I don't think patriotism can really be described rationally, I'd have thought it's similar to the idea that people have when they follow a sports team. The results have zero, or at best nearly zero, to do with them - doesn't stop them being proud of "their" team's results.

As much as I want QPR to win every game they play, I'm wasn't "proud" of them when they got promotion. I was very happy.

I'm proud of Jake when does a good deed or gets positive comments for his schoolwork.

But the two emotions can in no way be confused or compared.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2015, 04:07:42 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

I appreciate that - but if a young German is proud to be German I don't think you should wave WW2 in his face (for example) as a reason as to why he shouldn't be.
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