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Author Topic: St George's Day  (Read 7413 times)
The Camel
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« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2015, 04:09:40 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.

Having had some "difficult" experiences at border control in the USA, I hope you didn't make that comment to them. Doubt they would have seen the funny side!
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« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2015, 04:11:17 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

I appreciate that - but if a young German is proud to be German I don't think you should wave WW2 in his face (for example) as a reason as to why he shouldn't be.

I wouldn't unless he was a patriot and seemed to be proud of his country.

If you take some of the credit for the good stuff which has happened in your country, you have to take some of the blame for the bad stuff.
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« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2015, 04:13:05 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.

You're not in control of who your parents are either but you can be proud of them.  I'm not especially proud of being english when abroad given how some of my countrymen behave, but I don't like the tone that people who are proud of their origin must somehow be far right/xenophobic.  It's perfectly reasonable to be proud of your nation, and can be beneficial if society works harder and embraces the creation of infrastructure and support networks with more enthusiasm.
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The Camel
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« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2015, 04:19:50 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.

You're not in control of who your parents are either but you can be proud of them.  I'm not especially proud of being english when abroad given how some of my countrymen behave, but I don't like the tone that people who are proud of their origin must somehow be far right/xenophobic.  It's perfectly reasonable to be proud of your nation, and can be beneficial if society works harder and embraces the creation of infrastructure and support networks with more enthusiasm.

My parents share the same genes. And broadly held the same views and attitudes (My dad turned into a bit of a Tory as he got older, but I forgave him Smiley)

Why would I be proud of the achievements of someone I've never met and have nothing in common with just because they happen to have been born in the same piece of land as me?

That seems completely illogical.

I am no more proud of Jessica Ennis than I am of Usain Bolt or David Rudisha.

I am in awe of all their athletic achievements, but I am proud of none of them.
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The Camel
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« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2015, 04:26:36 PM »

If I was Jessica's trainer and my knowledge and knowhow directly improved her performance and helped her win a gold medal, I think I would be proud.

Otherwise, she seems like a nice woman and is an increibly talented and hardworking athlete.

So when she won the gold at London 2012 I was very happy for her. But in no way was I proud.
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« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2015, 04:31:08 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.

Having had some "difficult" experiences at border control in the USA, I hope you didn't make that comment to them. Doubt they would have seen the funny side!

I did once say after my passport was returned I found it strange to be considered an alien.  The blank look I received told it all. 
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« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2015, 04:32:57 PM »

I never celebrate St George's Day, but some of the posts in this thread are odd.

To say people can't be proud of being English because of the slave trade, is no different than saying the Germans or South Africans can't ever be proud due to history.

Different generations shouldn't have to bear the weight of their ancestors if their countries are now vibrant.

Which countries are allowed to proud?  Which ones have a clean slate?

I'm going to go with Costa Rica.

This is based on someone telling me the other day that they're the only country that hasn't got an army.


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« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2015, 04:34:12 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.

You're not in control of who your parents are either but you can be proud of them.  I'm not especially proud of being english when abroad given how some of my countrymen behave, but I don't like the tone that people who are proud of their origin must somehow be far right/xenophobic.  It's perfectly reasonable to be proud of your nation, and can be beneficial if society works harder and embraces the creation of infrastructure and support networks with more enthusiasm.

My parents share the same genes. And broadly held the same views and attitudes (My dad turned into a bit of a Tory as he got older, but I forgave him Smiley)

Why would I be proud of the achievements of someone I've never met and have nothing in common with just because they happen to have been born in the same piece of land as me?

That seems completely illogical.

I am no more proud of Jessica Ennis than I am of Usain Bolt or David Rudisha.

I am in awe of all their athletic achievements, but I am proud of none of them.

If you banded together with a few farmers next to you, built some towns and created a tax system that looked after the ill people in your region could you be proud of the newly formed "Camel Land"?  Could your group's children also be proud of being Camelites because their fathers had taught them the same skills and values?
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The Camel
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« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2015, 04:46:07 PM »

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.

You're not in control of who your parents are either but you can be proud of them.  I'm not especially proud of being english when abroad given how some of my countrymen behave, but I don't like the tone that people who are proud of their origin must somehow be far right/xenophobic.  It's perfectly reasonable to be proud of your nation, and can be beneficial if society works harder and embraces the creation of infrastructure and support networks with more enthusiasm.

My parents share the same genes. And broadly held the same views and attitudes (My dad turned into a bit of a Tory as he got older, but I forgave him Smiley)

Why would I be proud of the achievements of someone I've never met and have nothing in common with just because they happen to have been born in the same piece of land as me?

That seems completely illogical.

I am no more proud of Jessica Ennis than I am of Usain Bolt or David Rudisha.

I am in awe of all their athletic achievements, but I am proud of none of them.

If you banded together with a few farmers next to you, built some towns and created a tax system that looked after the ill people in your region could you be proud of the newly formed "Camel Land"?  Could your group's children also be proud of being Camelites because their fathers had taught them the same skills and values?


Blimey if everyone held pretty much identical views, skills and outlook on life it would be a pretty boring country!

Stepfordland.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2015, 04:48:45 PM »

The Camelites still argue in the taverns they have built.  But they see eye to eye on how to organise themselves to build a better network of town than the Dungtons in the surrounding valleys.  Can the Camelites be proud of their community? 
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mulhuzz
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« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2015, 05:08:11 PM »

how far back do you go with pride Keith?

There's a fair chance you're related to say, Shakespeare, and if you go back far enough at one point you're absolute related to every 'English' (whatever that might mean...) person before a certain time, leaving to the perverse situation where you can be proud of family, but not of country even though they are arguably the same.
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The Camel
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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2015, 05:41:25 PM »

how far back do you go with pride Keith?

There's a fair chance you're related to say, Shakespeare, and if you go back far enough at one point you're absolute related to every 'English' (whatever that might mean...) person before a certain time, leaving to the perverse situation where you can be proud of family, but not of country even though they are arguably the same.

I am proud of grandparents.

But before that? Nope.
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« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2015, 06:31:46 PM »


Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?

Are you proud of any of your heritage Keith?

My parents were both very loyal supporters of the Boys' Brigade and Girls' Brigade. They gave countless hours in providing a purpose for the young people in their care.
They were solid church going folk and spent a lot of their lives helping others.
Dad was still active in these regards into his eighties.
I'm proud of what they did.

I'm also proud to be part of the nation that gave the world so much.
Proud of Magna Carta, proud that our Parliament provided the model for much of the world.
Proud of Shakespeare.
Proud that our little country was the foremost innovator in the Industrial Revolution.
Proud of Churchhill and proud that this small nation opened it's doors to the world.


I'm proud to be British too. Proud of the part that the Scots played in creating so much of the modern world. Proud that the Irish played their part and the Welsh.

So why shouldn't the St George Flag and the Union Flag be flown by those of us who have that pride? Why shouldn't we reclaim them from the bigots, the racists and the thugs?


I'm proud of *my* heritage, yes.

And anyone is quite entitled to be proud of the good deeds of their parents/family.

But why would you be "proud" of the bolded bit? They hadn't nothing to do with you.

In the dictionary "proud" is defined as "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.".

I respect the work of Shakespeare, I'm impressed at the industrial revolution and although he was probably a bit of dick, I quite admire Churchill's leadership during the war.

But I am not proud of any of them.



We shall have to agree to differ.

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« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2015, 06:39:20 PM »

We shall have to agree to differ.

Seeing such civility makes me proud of Blonde.
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