The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

Every time i am in hospital i always think its full of English speaking (British) people who don't bring a skill to this country and are happy to live off the state and take out way more than they put in. The reality is the vast majority of this country's population takes out way more than it puts in over their lifetime but because they were born in England it's fine for them to do this whilst telling people's family who come from abroad it is a disgrace to do the same thing even if their families bread winner is a decent grafter unlike millions of British people.  Sure the stats boys here like kuk and doobs and double up will know the figures but i think the average family have to earn way in excess of £50k a year to be net payers to the system.  So the vast majority of people who love to moan about people never paying in don't actually cover their own take outs themselves.

I would much prefer to get rid of the underclass bottom 10% of Britain out of the country (and stop them breeding more scum) who really do think the British government owes them a living/lifestyle than the millions of generally hard working immigrants.  I think i know who are the biggest strain on the system.  Wetherspoons/high st bookies would probably go out of business as a result but i am sure we could cope.

Hard working people from aboard (generally but not 100% are young single fit people ambitious and hungry to get on and don't put a big strain on resources) come to this country and work hard and never hardly take a penny.  I have worked abroad several times and hardly taken a penny out of the local system but paid plenty in.  Most don't stay long term in their old age and drain the nhs of money/pensions from the system.  They come from 20-40 years old and usually go back home after earning their cash and paying their dues via the tax system.  As the stats have proven and numerous here have stated this is fact not fantasy.

Well yes.  But isn’t it my duty as a heavy taxpayer to look after these people as they are an existing part of society?   Obviously it would be nice if the left said thank you once in a while rather than telling me I need to put in even more.

Thanking you for paying tax, this is funny and truly ridiculous.

Why?  I pay an absolute truckload and have done for 15 years and all under PAYE.  I don’t mind if you don’t thank me on your internet whines.  Just don’t spit in my face.

It’s beyond ridiculous. “Spit in my face” wtf are you talking about? No one, least of all me gives a fuck about how much tax you pay. It’s a discussion about a society/population wide problem.

The likes of you (plus Corbyn/McDonnell) spin the lines:

- High earners don't pay their fair share
- High earners are busy putting their money offshore

Well we already do pay a high amount.  I'm happy the Scandanavian model - 2k personal allowance for everyone.  25% VAT.   I'll pay more tax of course, but at least everyone will pay their share.  But that would involve you paying more tax so you probably just advocate 60% higher rate I'd imagine while moaning that people in my boat aren't paying enough.  

Get ready Dung for more tax/loss of tax relief if you earn more than £50-60k a year.

It’s people in this area that will get squeezed especially if you are an employee on PAYE.

Latest rumour is Hammond wants to ditch higher rate tax pension relief and replace with a flat rate around 25%.

An easy £10-15 billion for the coffers but will act as a further disincentive to save.

Woodsey might not be happy  

[kukushkin88]

Groundhog Day, as I wake to read kush stating,

You don't seem to be getting this

It's beyond ridiculous/ truly ridiculous/ idiotic rant.

I don't care what you do, pay, get taxed etc, yet professes to claim about all of us.....

Another fun day ahead in thread Brexit

Good morning,

What did I “claim about all of us”? The guy said we should thank him for paying truckloads of tax and then said I was spitting in his face. It’s all a long way removed reality atm.

I am happy to stop posting if the consensus is that that’s what is best for the thread/everyone in it.

[BigAdz]

Groundhog Day, as I wake to read kush stating,

You don't seem to be getting this

It's beyond ridiculous/ truly ridiculous/ idiotic rant.

I don't care what you do, pay, get taxed etc, yet professes to claim about all of us.....

Another fun day ahead in thread Brexit

Good morning,

What did I “claim about all of us”? The guy said we should thank him for paying truckloads of tax and then said I was spitting in his face. It’s all a long way removed reality atm.

I am happy to stop posting if the consensus is that that’s what is best for the thread/everyone in it.

Of course not. Once again sense of humour alert....

But even in the post directly after the top one, you state how thoroughly Mantis doesn't understand......

Mix up your insults a bit please

[kukushkin88]

Groundhog Day, as I wake to read kush stating,

You don't seem to be getting this

It's beyond ridiculous/ truly ridiculous/ idiotic rant.

I don't care what you do, pay, get taxed etc, yet professes to claim about all of us.....

Another fun day ahead in thread Brexit

Good morning,

What did I “claim about all of us”? The guy said we should thank him for paying truckloads of tax and then said I was spitting in his face. It’s all a long way removed reality atm.

I am happy to stop posting if the consensus is that that’s what is best for the thread/everyone in it.

Of course not. Once again sense of humour alert....

But even in the post directly after the top one, you state how thoroughly Mantis doesn't understand......

Mix up your insults a bit please

I tend to use whether something is funny as a guide for my sense of humour, I hadn’t realised it was a joke.

There’s no way that pointing out that Mantis doesn’t understand this is an insult. Especially when I use up time almost daily to try and help him understand better.

[RED-DOG]

Groundhog Day, as I wake to read kush stating,

You don't seem to be getting this

It's beyond ridiculous/ truly ridiculous/ idiotic rant.

I don't care what you do, pay, get taxed etc, yet professes to claim about all of us.....

Another fun day ahead in thread Brexit

Good morning,

What did I “claim about all of us”? The guy said we should thank him for paying truckloads of tax and then said I was spitting in his face. It’s all a long way removed reality atm.

I am happy to stop posting if the consensus is that that’s what is best for the thread/everyone in it.

No offence, but that's just stupid. If everyone with a different opinion stops posting how can that possibly be good for the thread and everyone in it?

If you can honestly say that you comfortable with your views and the way in which you have expressed them, then carry on.

The last thing we need is a martyr outbreak.

[StuartHopkin]

Groundhog Day, as I wake to read kush stating,

You don't seem to be getting this

It's beyond ridiculous/ truly ridiculous/ idiotic rant.

I don't care what you do, pay, get taxed etc, yet professes to claim about all of us.....

Another fun day ahead in thread Brexit

Good morning,

What did I “claim about all of us”? The guy said we should thank him for paying truckloads of tax and then said I was spitting in his face. It’s all a long way removed reality atm.

I am happy to stop posting if the consensus is that that’s what is best for the thread/everyone in it.

Of course not. Once again sense of humour alert....

But even in the post directly after the top one, you state how thoroughly Mantis doesn't understand......

Mix up your insults a bit please

To be fair, reading the posts, it does appear that neither Mantis or Dung appear to understand how to debate or put an argument together.

Some bizarre posts from them.

[DungBeetle]

What do you perceive the merit of higher VAT to be? Just seems to be disproportionately unfair on the poor/poverty stricken.

It's a mirage.  The poor don't save.  Savings don't get taxed.  Thus VAT can be made to look statistically like it impacts the poor as a percentage of income.  I pay a fortune in VAT but I also save money.  Unless we tax the act of saving, then VAT will always skew the numbers.  The Scandanavians are said to have a fair society.  Presumably you are happy to follow their tax model?  I am.

Good morning,

You’ll need to explain the savings/vat ‘mirage’. There must be a key bit information I’m missing. I’ve researched extensively on the internet and there’s nothing there. If you or anyone else could provide insight that would be most appreciated.

Are you suggesting we use a different method to measure this other than ‘as a % of total income’? You say the poor don’t save like it’s a criticism. This is austerity Britain, they also don’t always eat, heat their homes or clothe their children but I can’t see what the lack of savings has to do with VAT.

Why not just ask me what I think about rates of taxation? Telling me what I should and shouldn’t like is just weird and comes across as an angry and idiotic rant.

I’ve asked you already but you dodge the question.  Are you in agreement that the Scandinavian taxation model is desirable and that we all pay more for public services?

The savings point isn’t a criticism.  It simply makes it a mathematical certainty that the poor will pay more tax as a percentage of income because we don’t tax savings.   So unless you want to tax non consumption percentage of income including consumption taxes (vat and duty)is a poor measure in my view and only used to make political points.  You are not comparing like with like.

[kukushkin88]

What do you perceive the merit of higher VAT to be? Just seems to be disproportionately unfair on the poor/poverty stricken.

It's a mirage.  The poor don't save.  Savings don't get taxed.  Thus VAT can be made to look statistically like it impacts the poor as a percentage of income.  I pay a fortune in VAT but I also save money.  Unless we tax the act of saving, then VAT will always skew the numbers.  The Scandanavians are said to have a fair society.  Presumably you are happy to follow their tax model?  I am.

Good morning,

You’ll need to explain the savings/vat ‘mirage’. There must be a key bit information I’m missing. I’ve researched extensively on the internet and there’s nothing there. If you or anyone else could provide insight that would be most appreciated.

Are you suggesting we use a different method to measure this other than ‘as a % of total income’? You say the poor don’t save like it’s a criticism. This is austerity Britain, they also don’t always eat, heat their homes or clothe their children but I can’t see what the lack of savings has to do with VAT.

Why not just ask me what I think about rates of taxation? Telling me what I should and shouldn’t like is just weird and comes across as an angry and idiotic rant.

I’ve asked you already but you dodge the question.  Are you in agreement that the Scandinavian taxation model is desirable and that we all pay more for public services?

The savings point isn’t a criticism.  It simply makes it a mathematical certainty that the poor will pay more tax as a percentage of income because we don’t tax savings.   So unless you want to tax non consumption percentage of income including consumption taxes (vat and duty)is a poor measure in my view and only used to make political points.  You are not comparing like with like.

I don’t think we can just implement a tax system from a very different country, even if we do admire multiple aspects of their society. I think it’s more  complicated than that. I’d never intentionally dodge a question, so no, I’m not in agreement.

How is percentage of total income paid out in VAT not like for like? It seems to be the measure used in all the analysis/studies I can find.

[TightEnd]

the summary of yesterday's meetings boils down to this

"Government fears unless withdrawal agreement commits EU to finding a UK-wide customs arrangement then it will be taken to court and will lose under existing primary legislation that forbids Northern Ireland being in a separate customs territory to rest of Britain

“The deal will be about finding the legal form cross-referencing the future, which is where the the customs arrangement will sit, in the withdrawal agreement,” said one ambassador“It has to be able to survive a legal challenge in the British courts from Brexiters”

May flagged legal fears in her Commons statement where she cited primary legislation that would rule out backstop, art 6, section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade Act)

that act says....

“It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty's Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain.”

[TightEnd]

a good front cover

or

"The Brexit establishment’s unquenchable contempt for Ireland, stunned disbelief the Irish government dares to defy it, and spiralling rage Britain can’t get its own way: Brexit’s historical erasure and post-colonial delusion distilled into one abjectly pathetic front cover"

[TightEnd]

you pays your money

[TightEnd]

or....

[TightEnd]

Sky Sources in EU27: “Barnier says he needs a lot more time than just a couple of weeks”....

It could be heading for December.... if Barnier says we get “decisive progress”

Indeed Dutch PM Mark Rutte said Barnier said it would take “several weeks” and identified Christmas as the likely absolute deadline for a ratification in UK and EU parliaments

[TightEnd]

EU leaders decided not to call an extraordinary Brexit summit in November because not enough progress has been made, according to an official

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/spain-s-borrell-sees-last-minute-divorce-deal-brexit-update

[TightEnd]

Theresa May: "The purpose of the backstop is to bridge the gap."

This is not really how the EU sees it. For Brussels, the backstop is not just a bridge but a permanent minimum level of alignment between Northern Ireland and the Republic.