The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[MANTIS01]

Not good news for anybody for sure...

But our declining economic performance in Q2 was associated with Brexit

German economic performance is similar but rather than leaving EU is the major player in EU

Ireland will have an economic disaster being part of EU

US economic decline, not an EU member

Italian economic decline, member of EU

Greek economic meltdown, member of EU

Spanish unemployment crisis, member of EU

Just worth noting that economic performance isn’t closely entrenched with EU membership. Countries inside and outside are mostly facing challenges.

[kukushkin88]

Are you saying we should ignore all the links that basically don't read like you want or they disagree with your point of view?

That is pretty much how your reply comes across.

I get the impression that even if we come out of this well, better than expected or even just ok, you will still be here picking holes and moaning away.

Can you show no optimism at all about the whole thing?


Let's put the thing into a historical proportion. It might well be bad, but we have come through wars, depressions, stock market crashes before and come out the other side and I would say compared to each of those we have had far more time to adjust, prepare and anticipate that it will be a rough ride.

So far you doom and gloom marchants expected the country to fall into the sea 3 years ago, and that never happened, so try and be a bit more positive ffs.

The very clear distinction in ‘historical proportion’, is that we are choosing to inflict considerable damage on ourselves and others in this situation, that makes it completely different to all of the examples you cite. Comparisons to war are very unhelpful.

Your last sentence, in relation to me, is just not true.

See, this is where you annoy me.

My comparison to war is "very unhelpful".

This would suggest I have hindered something or not helped? It is a statement, I have not done anything, I have not made an action. I have made a statement that is truthful. There have been wars and the economy has been shot, and we have come through it. It is an example(as you keep asking for), an extreme one indeed, but the way you carry on, it is like we are in a war, so I feel it is reasonable to point this out.

I have said you show no optimism about the whole thing, and you then say it is just not true. Yet in your reply just moments earlier you state 'I certainly have never seen a persuasive argument for feeling positive in any way about Brexit', which is exactly what I have said.

You just refuse to be wrong on any level, even when you draw the lines. Incred.

Comparing Brexit to a war is not a “statement that is truthful”. I’m wrong plenty of the time and I’m comfortable with that (and getting tired of explaining that) but I’m right to point out that I didn’t say that the country would fall into the sea 3 years ago, it’s not nearly that dramatic. There are ways to limit the damage, I work on Brexit preparedness for environmental regulation, so have some insight.

I do think that in terms of Brexit as a whole, there are factors outside of our control that mean we can’t hope for more than damage limitation.

[BigAdz]

Are you saying we should ignore all the links that basically don't read like you want or they disagree with your point of view?

That is pretty much how your reply comes across.

I get the impression that even if we come out of this well, better than expected or even just ok, you will still be here picking holes and moaning away.

Can you show no optimism at all about the whole thing?


Let's put the thing into a historical proportion. It might well be bad, but we have come through wars, depressions, stock market crashes before and come out the other side and I would say compared to each of those we have had far more time to adjust, prepare and anticipate that it will be a rough ride.

So far you doom and gloom marchants expected the country to fall into the sea 3 years ago, and that never happened, so try and be a bit more positive ffs.

The very clear distinction in ‘historical proportion’, is that we are choosing to inflict considerable damage on ourselves and others in this situation, that makes it completely different to all of the examples you cite. Comparisons to war are very unhelpful.

Your last sentence, in relation to me, is just not true.

See, this is where you annoy me.

My comparison to war is "very unhelpful".

This would suggest I have hindered something or not helped? It is a statement, I have not done anything, I have not made an action. I have made a statement that is truthful. There have been wars and the economy has been shot, and we have come through it. It is an example(as you keep asking for), an extreme one indeed, but the way you carry on, it is like we are in a war, so I feel it is reasonable to point this out.

I have said you show no optimism about the whole thing, and you then say it is just not true. Yet in your reply just moments earlier you state 'I certainly have never seen a persuasive argument for feeling positive in any way about Brexit', which is exactly what I have said.

You just refuse to be wrong on any level, even when you draw the lines. Incred.

Comparing Brexit to a war is not a “statement that is truthful”. I’m wrong plenty of the time and I’m comfortable with that (and getting tired of explaining that) but I’m right to point out that I didn’t say that the country would fall into the sea 3 years ago, it’s not nearly that dramatic. There are ways to limit the damage, I work on Brexit preparedness for environmental regulation, so have some insight.

I do think that in terms of Brexit as a whole, there are factors outside of our control that mean we can’t hope for more than damage limitation.

Twisting the words, yet still avoiding the context of the message.

I never compared Brexit to a war, and you know it. I simply said that we have been through far worse issues than Brexit. If you didn't get that point, then you are denser than your vocab suggests........

[TightEnd]

Relating to Mantis' links yesterday.

We had discussed the comres poll, which had controversial question wording

Yesterday Survation came out with this. very different to comres. might be right, might be wrong

Preferred Brexit outcome, updated:

Remain in the EU 43% (+2)
Leave the EU with a deal 29% (+2)
Leave the EU without a deal19% (-6)
Don’t know 9% (+2)

changes w/ May 2019

(link: https://www.survation.com/general-election-voting-intention-and-brexit-preferences-poll/)

[TightEnd]

the general polling message is an enduring Brexit dilemma - Remain is the plurality winner while Leave with a deal is (arguably) closest to the median voter. What a mess.

[MANTIS01]

The cause of much economic challenge is the lack of collaborative effort

My view is that UK trade is a significant prize and EU have allowed other agendas to cloud pursuit of pure collaboration. They have wanted to create a level of hardship and economic consequences are thus inevitable

Two advantages of Brexit are a) we can take our lucrative trade and deal with countries from a fresh page where collaboration is more pure, no messages to send or lessons to be taught b) we ourselves will need to be more collaborative, less division, less hostility, work for common good

[TightEnd]

relating to the John Bolton stuff, which i thought we had thoroughly debunked at the weekend but  we were provided links to last night by Mantis, not sure why as its nonsense

there was a very important no deal intervention yesterday



Nancy Pelosi
@SpeakerPelosi

#Brexit cannot be allowed to imperil the Good Friday Agreement. The peace of the Good Friday Agreement is treasured by the American people and will be fiercely defended on a bicameral and bipartisan basis in the US Congress.

(link: https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/81419/)



just read it, does it sound to you like a US trade deal happens under no deal with the end of the GFA? It doesn't to me

[TightEnd]

The links on the German economic situation, yes bad. EU bad. us bad in places ok in others (pay and employment)

the Amber Rudd link in the express of all places. Amber Rudd. Pro may and pro WA, then turns on her heels as she wants to stay in cabinet now on the vox pops pro no deal. Give me a break. Career politician who has sold her soul for a red box for a bit longer

[TightEnd]

Lord Heseltine says he believes Boris Johnson is "enthralled to a certain group in society who don't really care about what happens as long as they get out of the European Union" and says anybody who "gets in the way... is going to be vilified" (link: http://po.st/z9DDkn)

video https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1161708338582892544?s=20

[TightEnd]

Boris Johnson: Brexit opponents 'collaborating' with EU

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49348072

collaborating? war time stuff again i see. plays well to his blue rinse brigade i suppose


Here was David Lammy's response

"I am not a collaborator. None of my MP colleagues are. That term is best reserved for war time not peacetime. We are patriots determined to fight for the economic and cultural health of our country."

[TightEnd]

in general though Mantis thanks for the links, keep em coming

I am unlikely to see any from the Express, don't read it or follow them online. More different media voices the better

[MANTIS01]

UK trade is a lucrative prize

Trying to show that business will not find ways to secure lucrative prizes is as kuku says ‘unhelpful’

Supply and demand tells us that if not US then elsewhere but probably EU at the final hour

[TightEnd]

Lis is not unbiased of course

his summary of his article is

"Johnson is a vain and ignorant sociopath but he is not stupid. All he cares about is his premiership, and he knows no-deal will end it.

He is bluffing. But he has miscalculated. And he will fail."


i reproduce it as its an interesting read

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/is-boris-johnson-bluffing-brexit-no-deal-parliament-westminster

[ripple11]

Relating to Mantis' links yesterday.

We had discussed the comres poll, which had controversial question wording

Yesterday Survation came out with this. very different to comres. might be right, might be wrong

Preferred Brexit outcome, updated:

Remain in the EU 43% (+2)
Leave the EU with a deal 29% (+2)
Leave the EU without a deal19% (-6)
Don’t know 9% (+2)

changes w/ May 2019

(link: https://www.survation.com/general-election-voting-intention-and-brexit-preferences-poll/)

28% ...no deal or don’t know., when the question was  “prefer”!!

[MANTIS01]

Yea and after all the horror stories and clear site of hardships, people really are much more enlightened than pre-referendum

The majority of people who expressed an opinion still want to leave EU

Gotta ask wtf those wanting to revoke/remain are thinking