The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[BigAdz]

Head in hands man needed as I sit here agreeing with adzdonk!  Incredible scenes.

Was only ever a matter of time.

[PokerBroker]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen Adz but that is not typical of people on benefits in my opininion.  

Do you know how much people claiming benefits actually get and what they get them for?  

NLW is £7.20 an hour you'd be luck to get 2 pints of lager for that.  

So lets say we have an 2 adults with 2 kids both on the NLW and they both do 38hrs per week.  

That's £14,227 a year, ONS tells us the average family spend £531 a week.

There aint many folk on that sort of income getting a mortgage for much so the chances are they are probably renting.  Take into account childcare costs/travel/rent/food/utility bills/ communication/entertainment/servicing existing debts they are likely to have very little spare cash.  

The same couple above not working can get £22,170 on benefits assuming they are both able to work and are looking.  The sad thing is many on benefits to start with normally have an illness to go alongside and get a bit extra.  

I have seen families with 3 and 4 generations were people have come up on benefits and there kids will do they same because they live in abject poverty and know nothing different.  

I don't have all the answers but what I do know is the current system is a failure, but governments expecially this tory one have gone after the wrong people.

Lets introduce a living wage that is fit and proper, I don't think paying someone £8.25 an hour is too much of a hardship, for smaller businesses lets give them greater tax breaks to allow them to pay the money.  

The current system in  general is failing for the majority of people but for as long as we keep sticking to the failures and not learning from them the conditions won't improve much.  

[MintTrav]

I simply struggle accept that somebody feels so strongly about staying in the EU could be strongly against staying in the UK.  You'd absolutely have to tie yourself in knots to explain that position.

It is a totally rational position to believe that Scotland is better off to be independent of the UK and simultaneously to believe that Scotland benefits from being in the EU, whether it is an independent country or part of the UK. They are two completely separate things.

[PokerBroker]

Also why are we assuming migrants are on NMW?  Many of them are skilled workers earning more. 

[PokerBroker]

Not sure if this will work, Mark Blyth, a Scottish academic based in the US, offering a left critique of the EU, austerity (on which he wrote a very good book) and analysis of Brexit and more. I look forward to the whole interview this Sunday.

https://www.facebook.com/AthensLiveGr/

Very good, and thought provoking. 

[RickBFA]

I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?

Lol wat? There wasn't a question about 'Scotland' in this referendum.

In fact if we analyse the data regarding the UK question put to the UK people we find there were MORE Scottish people who voted OUT or didn't vote at all than those who voted remain.

Yet in this new democracy that translates to Scotland voted to remain...even though that wasn't the question...and 33% chose not to answer the actual question. But meh let's just say Scotland voted to remain in the UK as an independent country. Democracy has been rinsed throughout this campaign and even more so now the result is in.

I know you are prob just trolling as usual but I'll say it again:

In the Scottish elections in May, the SNP said in their manifesto that if Scotland significantly voted to stay in the EU and the rUK voted out, they would ask for a second independence referendum.  I really don't see what you don't understand - she has to stand by the manifesto and has absolutely no choice other than raise the issue of another referendum.

Quick questions. Even though it is in the SNP manifesto, Scotland are still part of the UK. I guess the UK has no obligation to offer another referendum, even if Jimmy Krankie screams from the rooftops? Especially as the last vote was so recent?

[Jon MW]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen Adz but that is not typical of people on benefits in my opininion.  

Do you know how much people claiming benefits actually get and what they get them for?  

NLW is £7.20 an hour you'd be luck to get 2 pints of lager for that.  

So lets say we have an 2 adults with 2 kids both on the NLW and they both do 38hrs per week.  

That's £14,227 a year, ONS tells us the average family spend £531 a week.

There aint many folk on that sort of income getting a mortgage for much so the chances are they are probably renting.  Take into account childcare costs/travel/rent/food/utility bills/ communication/entertainment/servicing existing debts they are likely to have very little spare cash.  

The same couple above not working can get £22,170 on benefits assuming they are both able to work and are looking.  The sad thing is many on benefits to start with normally have an illness to go alongside and get a bit extra.  

I have seen families with 3 and 4 generations were people have come up on benefits and there kids will do they same because they live in abject poverty and know nothing different.  

I don't have all the answers but what I do know is the current system is a failure, but governments expecially this tory one have gone after the wrong people.

Lets introduce a living wage that is fit and proper, I don't think paying someone £8.25 an hour is too much of a hardship, for smaller businesses lets give them greater tax breaks to allow them to pay the money.  

The current system in  general is failing for the majority of people but for as long as we keep sticking to the failures and not learning from them the conditions won't improve much.  

About 6% of the population are on minimum wage and about 16% of households have no one who works in them - I'd have thought that suggests that the system isn't failing for the vast majority of people. (although it's true that I was surprised about how high the workless households was)

[doubleup]

I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?

Lol wat? There wasn't a question about 'Scotland' in this referendum.

In fact if we analyse the data regarding the UK question put to the UK people we find there were MORE Scottish people who voted OUT or didn't vote at all than those who voted remain.

Yet in this new democracy that translates to Scotland voted to remain...even though that wasn't the question...and 33% chose not to answer the actual question. But meh let's just say Scotland voted to remain in the UK as an independent country. Democracy has been rinsed throughout this campaign and even more so now the result is in.

I know you are prob just trolling as usual but I'll say it again:

In the Scottish elections in May, the SNP said in their manifesto that if Scotland significantly voted to stay in the EU and the rUK voted out, they would ask for a second independence referendum.  I really don't see what you don't understand - she has to stand by the manifesto and has absolutely no choice other than raise the issue of another referendum.

Quick questions. Even though it is in the SNP manifesto, Scotland are still part of the UK. I guess the UK has no obligation to offer another referendum, even if Jimmy Krankie screams from the rooftops? Especially as the last vote was so recent?

Yes def agree with that.  My only point is that it is completely reasonable for Sturgeon to make the SNP intentions quite clear  (in accordance with SNP election pledges).

[redsimon]

That 16% of non working households includes pensioner households too , are there figures for non working households of working age?

[RickBFA]

I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?

Lol wat? There wasn't a question about 'Scotland' in this referendum.

In fact if we analyse the data regarding the UK question put to the UK people we find there were MORE Scottish people who voted OUT or didn't vote at all than those who voted remain.

Yet in this new democracy that translates to Scotland voted to remain...even though that wasn't the question...and 33% chose not to answer the actual question. But meh let's just say Scotland voted to remain in the UK as an independent country. Democracy has been rinsed throughout this campaign and even more so now the result is in.

I know you are prob just trolling as usual but I'll say it again:

In the Scottish elections in May, the SNP said in their manifesto that if Scotland significantly voted to stay in the EU and the rUK voted out, they would ask for a second independence referendum.  I really don't see what you don't understand - she has to stand by the manifesto and has absolutely no choice other than raise the issue of another referendum.

Quick questions. Even though it is in the SNP manifesto, Scotland are still part of the UK. I guess the UK has no obligation to offer another referendum, even if Jimmy Krankie screams from the rooftops? Especially as the last vote was so recent?

Yes def agree with that.  My only point is that it is completely reasonable for Sturgeon to make the SNP intentions quite clear  (in accordance with SNP election pledges).

Its going to be fascinating.

You would think that the new PM will have bigger fish to fry than trying to appease her or the SNP. Nothing to lose for the Government (given the historic strength of SNP and lack of any loss of votes/seats for the Tories) for them to say you have had your referendum, your people voted to stay in UK, we aint offering you a new referendum. Tough. Come back in 15 years.

[Jon MW]

That 16% of non working households includes pensioner households too , are there figures for non working households of working age?

It was 16% of  working age households. Pensioner households were already excluded.

[PokerBroker]

And how many households are there in low incomes?  

Maybe my opinions are biased based on my location and the people I know.

What are the figures for those on low income jobs who are struggling to get by day to day and are using foodbanks and rely on current state hand outs likes universal credits to get by?  

[PokerBroker]

I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?

Lol wat? There wasn't a question about 'Scotland' in this referendum.

In fact if we analyse the data regarding the UK question put to the UK people we find there were MORE Scottish people who voted OUT or didn't vote at all than those who voted remain.

Yet in this new democracy that translates to Scotland voted to remain...even though that wasn't the question...and 33% chose not to answer the actual question. But meh let's just say Scotland voted to remain in the UK as an independent country. Democracy has been rinsed throughout this campaign and even more so now the result is in.

I know you are prob just trolling as usual but I'll say it again:

In the Scottish elections in May, the SNP said in their manifesto that if Scotland significantly voted to stay in the EU and the rUK voted out, they would ask for a second independence referendum.  I really don't see what you don't understand - she has to stand by the manifesto and has absolutely no choice other than raise the issue of another referendum.

Quick questions. Even though it is in the SNP manifesto, Scotland are still part of the UK. I guess the UK has no obligation to offer another referendum, even if Jimmy Krankie screams from the rooftops? Especially as the last vote was so recent?

Yes def agree with that.  My only point is that it is completely reasonable for Sturgeon to make the SNP intentions quite clear  (in accordance with SNP election pledges).

Its going to be fascinating.

You would think that the new PM will have bigger fish to fry than trying to appease her or the SNP. Nothing to lose for the Government (given the historic strength of SNP and lack of any loss of votes/seats for the Tories) for them to say you have had your referendum, your people voted to stay in UK, we aint offering you a new referendum. Tough. Come back in 15 years.

But we were told on numerous occasions that in order to stay in the EU we had to stay in the UK.  Many, many people were fooled by that. The same way people were fooled by the "vow" and the superior powers that Holyrood were going to be getting. 

If the people of Scotland decide they want independence we will have it. 

[RickBFA]

I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?

Lol wat? There wasn't a question about 'Scotland' in this referendum.

In fact if we analyse the data regarding the UK question put to the UK people we find there were MORE Scottish people who voted OUT or didn't vote at all than those who voted remain.

Yet in this new democracy that translates to Scotland voted to remain...even though that wasn't the question...and 33% chose not to answer the actual question. But meh let's just say Scotland voted to remain in the UK as an independent country. Democracy has been rinsed throughout this campaign and even more so now the result is in.

I know you are prob just trolling as usual but I'll say it again:

In the Scottish elections in May, the SNP said in their manifesto that if Scotland significantly voted to stay in the EU and the rUK voted out, they would ask for a second independence referendum.  I really don't see what you don't understand - she has to stand by the manifesto and has absolutely no choice other than raise the issue of another referendum.

Quick questions. Even though it is in the SNP manifesto, Scotland are still part of the UK. I guess the UK has no obligation to offer another referendum, even if Jimmy Krankie screams from the rooftops? Especially as the last vote was so recent?

Yes def agree with that.  My only point is that it is completely reasonable for Sturgeon to make the SNP intentions quite clear  (in accordance with SNP election pledges).

Its going to be fascinating.

You would think that the new PM will have bigger fish to fry than trying to appease her or the SNP. Nothing to lose for the Government (given the historic strength of SNP and lack of any loss of votes/seats for the Tories) for them to say you have had your referendum, your people voted to stay in UK, we aint offering you a new referendum. Tough. Come back in 15 years.

But we were told on numerous occasions that in order to stay in the EU we had to stay in the UK.  Many, many people were fooled by that. The same way people were fooled by the "vow" and the superior powers that Holyrood were going to be getting. 

If the people of Scotland decide they want independence we will have it. 

It may well be in the interests of democracy to have a vote in Scotland, but that's not the point.

UK Government could decide to play hardball with SNP and not offer a referendum now.

Not saying they will or wont, its just an interesting situation.

The people of Scotland may have to wait whether they like it or not.

[Jon MW]

And how many households are there in low incomes?  

Maybe my opinions are biased based on my location and the people I know.

What are the figures for those on low income jobs who are struggling to get by day to day and are using foodbanks and rely on current state hand outs likes universal credits to get by?  

The argument you were using was based on people on min wage being worse off than people on no wage - obviously there are people in the middle; families on a low wage who are entitled to benefits (for example).

But if their income is being topped up with benefits - the system seems to be working pretty well for them as well, doesn't it?

EDIT: foodbanks are a different matter - those people are still struggling. But it is noticeable that all the talk of how bad things are because of people using foodbanks concentrates on the growth of foodbanks. The people using them represents a very small number still. It's also materially affected by the fact that it used to be a lot more difficult legally to use foodbanks and they didn't get publicised very well - so even talking of the growth is misleading in a way, part of the growth is down to the extra accessibility to them.