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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2181164 times)
doubleup
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« Reply #3585 on: June 25, 2016, 11:53:15 AM »

...or theyr'e cheaper to employ, skills shortage or not, which is why we have free movement in the first place

In the productive sector of the economy, due to globalisation, workers simply can't make themselves richer due to labour shortages.  So the jobs will simply move to the countries with cheaper labour.
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Marky_Crash
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« Reply #3586 on: June 25, 2016, 12:18:29 PM »

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Welcome Marky!

Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

Such an excellent point. I would have loved the EU to keep spreading further and further out, embracing more developing countries and creating a stable and safe environment for them to grow. Would it be so bad in the distant future if the EU managed to engulf Russia, or Africa, enabling peace to thrive and preventing opportunity for blood-thirsty dictators to reign? The less war there is the more money can be spent on tackling more important issues that the word faces over the next 100 years.

Thanks Hammer!

This touches deeply on the main area which swung me from being a firm remain voter to being on the fence, unable to come to an overarching conclusion and ultimately deciding not to vote as I thought I would basically be flipping a coin.

People's priorities will obviously shape their politically ideology...

By that I mean one of the main areas which will shape individuals political allegiances will be whether their main priority is: Themselves, their community, their country, the EU or the world. Then within these categories whether they measure success as maximum profit for certain groups or general well being for the whole populous.

I personally would vote in a party who I thought would make me personally 5 or 10% worse off if I truely believed they would make life significantly better for the masses, tackling issues like poverty 'head on' over a local, national and internationall level. It is about 'lifting the floor, not the ceiling' for me. I do not see myself as a looney lefty for these views; on the contrary I feel this is the only long term sustainable way to have prosperity as it would encourage tax revenues from wider groups and take pressure off the health and emergency services as people would generally be experiencing better healthier outcomes in their lives. There is a weight of evidence showing that more prosperous communities are less of a resource drain on society.

When I initially considered which way to vote I looked in depth at immigration and the economy. It seemed to me a clear case that immigration was being used as a political football to gain populous support and that it really was not the big deal it was being made out. The average immigrant is younger, more likely to be in work, less likely to be on benefits and due to these factors someone who was likely to be making an net contribution to the tax coffers which, with increasing longevity and rising pension costs, is something that is needed for the sake of UK long term financial stability. It is true that the infrastructure of the NHS, housing and education are put under increasing stress due to increased immigration but as the country is/was benefiting overall from immigration this was up to the government to take measures to alleviate these concerns. Rather than do this and be accountable the government found it easier to penny pinch in these areas and allow the myth that 'immigrants were the problem', and not government underinvestment, to propogate.

This had me firmly as a remain voter until I looked into the shoddy deals the EU is able to dish out to the 'global south', covering areas such as Africa which you mentioned, as the EU has such collective clout these countries are generally paid a low rate for their resources from the EU. While this does fit with a capitalist mentality, may seem fair to some, and simply a case of economic Darwinian 'survival of the fittest'... This doesn't give these countries the platform they need to prosper and actually keeps them pinned down and underdeveloped. This obviously means that issues of poverty in these areas are not effectively addressed, encourages social landscapes where war and turmoil can thrive and this ultimately leads to masses of these individuals living in crap circumstances and wanting to move to countries such as the UK to get out of those circumstances.

So while I would champion many of the efforts to tackle human rights etc made by the EU in Europe, they do not 'currently' look like the body to tackle these issues globally and they actually exacerbate the problem. As a partly elected, partly unelected body, driven by capitalist values, I am not sure the EU is the body to tackle the issues you mention on a wider scale. There could be EU reform, and probably will be after the UK vote, if this reform went far enough to convince me that these issues would be addressed I would come off the fence and be much more pro EU. I sadly doubt that any EU reform would go that far however I would be very happy to be shown otherwise.

Sorry for the ramble, I definitely have issues trying to be concise!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 12:29:23 PM by Marky_Crash » Logged
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« Reply #3587 on: June 25, 2016, 12:54:07 PM »

Am new to the forum and have just found out there are areas discussing matters other than poker...

Welcome Marky!

Increasing globalisation seems to be the natural direction of progressive change and social evolution, the EU referendum decision taken by UK voters seems greatly at odds with this natural direction of development.

Such an excellent point. I would have loved the EU to keep spreading further and further out, embracing more developing countries and creating a stable and safe environment for them to grow. Would it be so bad in the distant future if the EU managed to engulf Russia, or Africa, enabling peace to thrive and preventing opportunity for blood-thirsty dictators to reign? The less war there is the more money can be spent on tackling more important issues that the word faces over the next 100 years.

Thanks Hammer!

This touches deeply on the main area which swung me from being a firm remain voter to being on the fence, unable to come to an overarching conclusion and ultimately deciding not to vote as I thought I would basically be flipping a coin.

People's priorities will obviously shape their politically ideology...

By that I mean one of the main areas which will shape individuals political allegiances will be whether their main priority is: Themselves, their community, their country, the EU or the world. Then within these categories whether they measure success as maximum profit for certain groups or general well being for the whole populous.

I personally would vote in a party who I thought would make me personally 5 or 10% worse off if I truely believed they would make life significantly better for the masses, tackling issues like poverty 'head on' over a local, national and internationall level. It is about 'lifting the floor, not the ceiling' for me. I do not see myself as a looney lefty for these views; on the contrary I feel this is the only long term sustainable way to have prosperity as it would encourage tax revenues from wider groups and take pressure off the health and emergency services as people would generally be experiencing better healthier outcomes in their lives. There is a weight of evidence showing that more prosperous communities are less of a resource drain on society.

When I initially considered which way to vote I looked in depth at immigration and the economy. It seemed to me a clear case that immigration was being used as a political football to gain populous support and that it really was not the big deal it was being made out. The average immigrant is younger, more likely to be in work, less likely to be on benefits and due to these factors someone who was likely to be making an net contribution to the tax coffers which, with increasing longevity and rising pension costs, is something that is needed for the sake of UK long term financial stability. It is true that the infrastructure of the NHS, housing and education are put under increasing stress due to increased immigration but as the country is/was benefiting overall from immigration this was up to the government to take measures to alleviate these concerns. Rather than do this and be accountable the government found it easier to penny pinch in these areas and allow the myth that 'immigrants were the problem', and not government underinvestment, to propogate.

This had me firmly as a remain voter until I looked into the shoddy deals the EU is able to dish out to the 'global south', covering areas such as Africa which you mentioned, as the EU has such collective clout these countries are generally paid a low rate for their resources from the EU. While this does fit with a capitalist mentality, may seem fair to some, and simply a case of economic Darwinian 'survival of the fittest'... This doesn't give these countries the platform they need to prosper and actually keeps them pinned down and underdeveloped. This obviously means that issues of poverty in these areas are not effectively addressed, encourages social landscapes where war and turmoil can thrive and this ultimately leads to masses of these individuals living in crap circumstances and wanting to move to countries such as the UK to get out of those circumstances.

So while I would champion many of the efforts to tackle human rights etc made by the EU in Europe, they do not 'currently' look like the body to tackle these issues globally and they actually exacerbate the problem. As a partly elected, partly unelected body, driven by capitalist values, I am not sure the EU is the body to tackle the issues you mention on a wider scale. There could be EU reform, and probably will be after the UK vote, if this reform went far enough to convince me that these issues would be addressed I would come off the fence and be much more pro EU. I sadly doubt that any EU reform would go that far however I would be very happy to be shown otherwise.

Sorry for the ramble, I definitely have issues trying to be concise!

It's long but I would press the like button if we had one.
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« Reply #3588 on: June 25, 2016, 12:56:59 PM »

Nicola Sturgeon concerns me and I find her rather self-serving...although impressive at the same time. In fact this whole idea that you can keep having referendums until you spike the result you want concerns me more. The British people voted OUT of the EU so just respect the result peoples. Scotland voted to remain in the UK so just respect the result peoples. Democracy becomes a bit of a farce if you keep asking the same question multiple times. All this second referendum for Scotland or England regretting Brexit and having another vote really needs to stop because it's so self-defeating to Britain's chances of making the most of this fresh, exciting chapter.

I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table. Right at a time when British leaders needed to step forward and calm the uncertainty with stability, wp Nicola. We are now set to enter world markets and do business so our 'brand' will be vital. If I was Sturgeon I would unite behind the Union Jack and the Made in Britain branding and contribute to our united strength. The Scottish brand or indeed the European brand (what that even looks like in a few years and if they can even cut a deal) really seem less of an attractive option. But really we don't know how things are going to pan out so just give it some time to digest Nicola before you go jumping in feet first after like one day. Seems reckless, illogical and anti-British.
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« Reply #3589 on: June 25, 2016, 12:57:02 PM »

the tabled equivalent of pissing into the wind....


 Click to see full-size image.


The more I see of this overt continued campaigning - the more I believe that by whatever mechanism it takes, my electrician friend will be right with his 'we'll never be allowed to leave' - so obviously gonna come true dat - FACT

Bit of chatter revolving around the Article 50 notification to Brussels that we have to send if we want to leave. The referendum itself changes nothing, the thing that starts the process is the Government activating the exit clause.

It should have happened first thing Friday morning but Cameron kicked it into the long grass by quitting and saying it should be something for his successor. Boris clearly never wanted to leave, resulting in a victory speech that looked like he was giving the eulogy at his grandmother's funeral.

The political establishment here don't want to leave, the EU don't want us to leave. I'm sure options are being looked at that could keep us in without a) blowing the Conservatives apart and b) turning UKIP into a major political force when the Leavers revolt.
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« Reply #3590 on: June 25, 2016, 01:00:50 PM »

this thing has over 1m signatories already

don't really agree with it, accept the result, moan a bit/a lot if necessary and then crack on

but here it is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324
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« Reply #3591 on: June 25, 2016, 01:02:01 PM »

in a separate petition more than 100,000 people have called on London Mayor Sadiq Khan to declare the English capital independent from the UK and apply to join the EU.

The page, set up by James O'Malley, states: "London is an international city, and we want to remain at the heart of Europe.

"Let's face it - the rest of the country disagrees. So rather than passive aggressively vote against each other at every election, let's make the divorce official and move in with our friends on the continent."

enjoy :-)
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« Reply #3592 on: June 25, 2016, 01:05:32 PM »



I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.
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« Reply #3593 on: June 25, 2016, 01:05:57 PM »

The people voted out but the political establishment and EU want us in so they will be looking at options to keep us in?

Old people should have their votes restricted and the young should have the major say?

Generally I have found the attitude to democracy, especially from the remain campaign, rather dangerous and sinister really.

What becomes of any team that doesn't commit to a team decision? They perform like shit that's what.
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« Reply #3594 on: June 25, 2016, 01:13:37 PM »



I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.
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« Reply #3595 on: June 25, 2016, 01:19:32 PM »



I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?

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« Reply #3596 on: June 25, 2016, 01:22:21 PM »

The people voted out but the political establishment and EU want us in so they will be looking at options to keep us in?



The EU want us out as quickly as possible, the Tory careerists who never thought brexit would win are the ones trying to look for a way out of the mess.
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« Reply #3597 on: June 25, 2016, 01:38:11 PM »

this thing has over 1m signatories already

don't really agree with it, accept the result, moan a bit/a lot if necessary and then crack on

but here it is

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324

I have already replied on Facebook to this invite.

Not only is changing the rules of a democratic vote after it has happened an absolutely ludicrous idea, it sets a dangerous precedent for our futures. 

President Boris doesn't like the fact we have eventually seen through his cartoon exterior and seen the inner slime ball, but every time we vote him out, he changes the threshold.   1 million people would seemingly think this is a desirable scenario.
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« Reply #3598 on: June 25, 2016, 01:58:52 PM »



I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?



Lol wat? There wasn't a question about 'Scotland' in this referendum.

In fact if we analyse the data regarding the UK question put to the UK people we find there were MORE Scottish people who voted OUT or didn't vote at all than those who voted remain.

Yet in this new democracy that translates to Scotland voted to remain...even though that wasn't the question...and 33% chose not to answer the actual question. But meh let's just say Scotland voted to remain in the EU as an independent country. Democracy has been rinsed throughout this campaign and even more so now the result is in.
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« Reply #3599 on: June 25, 2016, 02:07:04 PM »



I find Nicola Sturgeon has pounced on this turn of events to put her agenda back on the table.

it was clearly in her party's manifesto in the May elections, so hardly unexpected, in fact, the complete opposite.

The longer she leaves it the clearer the picture, the more variables the Scottish people have to work with. Calling for it on Day 1 is a different matter. Let's get the vote through while we're in a haze of confusion. I would expect a good leader to put leadership first.

wat?

It was in her manifesto, The UK as a whole voted to exit, Scotland didn't, where is the "haze of confusion"?



Lol wat? There wasn't a question about 'Scotland' in this referendum.

In fact if we analyse the data regarding the UK question put to the UK people we find there were MORE Scottish people who voted OUT or didn't vote at all than those who voted remain.

Yet in this new democracy that translates to Scotland voted to remain...even though that wasn't the question...and 33% chose not to answer the actual question. But meh let's just say Scotland voted to remain in the UK as an independent country. Democracy has been rinsed throughout this campaign and even more so now the result is in.

I know you are prob just trolling as usual but I'll say it again:

In the Scottish elections in May, the SNP said in their manifesto that if Scotland significantly voted to stay in the EU and the rUK voted out, they would ask for a second independence referendum.  I really don't see what you don't understand - she has to stand by the manifesto and has absolutely no choice other than raise the issue of another referendum.

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