The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[DaveShoelace]

Question of the day

How much personal agency do you think the average person has today in the UK? If someone commits a crime, is that ever excusable because of their circumstances? If someone is born into a poor environment, are they poised to always stay that way? Is someone born into a privilaged rich environment, are they destined to have a good life?

Obviously there are outliers on both sides, but I'm talking about the majority here. When someone gets to, say, 30, how much of what their life has become been down to them, and how much their environment?

I ask this in a politics thread because there seems to be a very distinct difference in how people on the left and right view this.

[bobAlike]

Question of the day

How much personal agency do you think the average person has today in the UK? If someone commits a crime, is that ever excusable because of their circumstances? If someone is born into a poor environment, are they poised to always stay that way? Is someone born into a privilaged rich environment, are they destined to have a good life?

Obviously there are outliers on both sides, but I'm talking about the majority here. When someone gets to, say, 30, how much of what their life has become been down to them, and how much their environment?

I ask this in a politics thread because there seems to be a very distinct difference in how people on the left and right view this.

Great question. Personally I think we are the masters of our own destiny and whilst we can be dis/advantaged by our surroundings it all comes down to character whether we succumb to or exceed.

[horseplayer]

Torn on this depends to the extreme of the environment i think.

Read a report the other day on the London drugs war from the ex chief who has recently retired.

Said he spoke to a Somalian refugee who had fled here when he was 10 and whom he arrested at 15 for knifing a rival gang member who came at him in the street.

"My Mum Dad and baby sister were hacked to death in-front of my eyes when i was 8 years old and i was left alone, do you really think someone running at me with a knife is scary to me?".

Hard to think in that situation he has much chance in life, or certainly less of one.

On the other hand sure it is used as an excuse in some/a lot of cases.

[DungBeetle]

I've had far greater life opportunities than my parents did and it's made things way easier for me.

I've put a lot of work in though.

I think my answer is different depending on how rich and how deprived you are.

I think if we're talking private school education with good but moderately rich parents verses state school education with good but lower earning parents, then I think the richer kid gets an advantage and their success is 65%/35% determined by circumstance v effort.

If we're talking private school education with very rich well connected parents verses kid from a broken home in a rough neighbourhood then I think the circumstance v effort goes to 90% verses 10%.  

Then I guess there are a whole range of ones in between.  I do believe this though - family environment is bigger than wealth.  If you are lucky enough to have good parents and a stable home environment then you have a shot at success no matter where your starting point.

[AlunB]

Of course you then have to quantify what constitutes success

[DaveShoelace]

Of course you then have to quantify what constitutes success

That goes off onto a different tangent. Just trying to see what everyone's views are on how much control we all have vs our circumstances

How about we just say a physically and emotionally healthy life, where they can live in their own place, with a job and without severe financial hardship?

[AlunB]

Of course you then have to quantify what constitutes success

That goes off onto a different tangent. Just trying to see what everyone's views are on how much control we all have vs our circumstances

How about we just say a physically and emotionally healthy life, where they can live in their own place, with a job and without severe financial hardship?

I think it in part informs the discordance between how two sides of the political spectrum view the issue. Wasn't just meant to make things difficult.

To (most/some) right wingers, success means being rich or at the very least being important. To (most/some) left wingers, success can mean something quite different.

How much easier is it to become rich or powerful if you are born rich and powerful? I'm not sure we even need to answer that question do we?

[DaveShoelace]

Of course you then have to quantify what constitutes success

That goes off onto a different tangent. Just trying to see what everyone's views are on how much control we all have vs our circumstances

How about we just say a physically and emotionally healthy life, where they can live in their own place, with a job and without severe financial hardship?

I think it in part informs the discordance between how two sides of the political spectrum view the issue. Wasn't just meant to make things difficult.

To (most/some) right wingers, success means being rich or at the very least being important. To (most/some) left wingers, success can mean something quite different.

How much easier is it to become rich or powerful if you are born rich and powerful? I'm not sure we even need to answer that question do we?

Fair comment.

I guess the intention behind my question is perhaps more left-leaning, probably a bit more towards the 'how easy is it to get out of poverty?'

[AlunB]

The two biggest things that enabled my dad to go from council estate upbringing to middle class comfort (grants and grammar schools) don't exist anymore. I'm not sure what my point is really...

[Woodsey]

Of course you then have to quantify what constitutes success

That goes off onto a different tangent. Just trying to see what everyone's views are on how much control we all have vs our circumstances

How about we just say a physically and emotionally healthy life, where they can live in their own place, with a job and without severe financial hardship?

I think it in part informs the discordance between how two sides of the political spectrum view the issue. Wasn't just meant to make things difficult.

To (most/some) right wingers, success means being rich or at the very least being important. To (most/some) left wingers, success can mean something quite different.

How much easier is it to become rich or powerful if you are born rich and powerful? I'm not sure we even need to answer that question do we?

Fair comment.

I guess the intention behind my question is perhaps more left-leaning, probably a bit more towards the 'how easy is it to get out of poverty?'

Depends how much you want to is probably the answer.

[The Camel]

People who are successful don't recognise the huge amount of luck involved in getting to where they are today.

They tend to think they are talented and hard working.

[Woodsey]

People who are successful don't recognise the huge amount of luck involved in getting to where they are today.

They tend to think they are talented and hard working.

They normally are, it's usually people who are jealous of successful people that come out with that nonsense,

[AlunB]

People who are successful don't recognise the huge amount of luck involved in getting to where they are today.

They tend to think they are talented and hard working.

They normally are, it's usually people who are jealous of other peoples success that come out with that nonsense,

Think it's more accurate to say they tend to think people who aren't a "success" are not as talented and hard working

[DungBeetle]

People who are successful don't recognise the huge amount of luck involved in getting to where they are today.

They tend to think they are talented and hard working.

Thinking every successful person is lucky seems a bit of a comfort blanket to me.

Most successful people do work hard and are smart to get where they are.  And many appreciate when they have been given advantages and "run good" as it were.

[RED-DOG]

Isn't this the old Nature vs Nurture question?