The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[The Camel]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

[david3103]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

[arbboy]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

[Doobs]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

No.  It is almost certainly nothing to do with this.  Young people die much less frequently than old people.  So even if young people died far more at the weekend then it wouldn't cause much of a blip.  The study adjusted for reason for admission anyway.

I think the issue is almost certainly lower medical care available at weekends. Whether it is GPs, junior doctors or consultants is another debate.   Also should people who become doctors accept that their vocation means that they should accept weekend working and night working more readily than others? 

Shouldn't we just accept that doctors already work hard, deserve extra for working weekends, and accept that there will always be more deaths at the weekend.  People simply expect too much from the NHS?

[RED-DOG]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

No.  It is almost certainly nothing to do with this.  Young people die much less frequently than old people.  So even if young people died far more at the weekend then it wouldn't cause much of a blip.  The study adjusted for reason for admission anyway.

I think the issue is almost certainly lower medical care available at weekends. Whether it is GPs, junior doctors or consultants is another debate.   Also should people who become doctors accept that their vocation means that they should accept weekend working and night working more readily than others? 

Shouldn't we just accept that doctors already work hard, deserve extra for working weekends, and accept that there will always be more deaths at the weekend.  People simply expect too much from the NHS?

Well I suppose you have to ask yourself how you would feel if it was your dad or son that died on a Sunday because the care they got wasn't as good as that they would have received on a Wednesday.

[horseplayer]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

No.  It is almost certainly nothing to do with this.  Young people die much less frequently than old people.  So even if young people died far more at the weekend then it wouldn't cause much of a blip.  The study adjusted for reason for admission anyway.

I think the issue is almost certainly lower medical care available at weekends. Whether it is GPs, junior doctors or consultants is another debate.   Also should people who become doctors accept that their vocation means that they should accept weekend working and night working more readily than others? 

Shouldn't we just accept that doctors already work hard, deserve extra for working weekends, and accept that there will always be more deaths at the weekend.  People simply expect too much from the NHS?

Well I suppose you have to ask yourself how you would feel if it was your dad or son that died on a Sunday because the care they got wasn't as good as that they would have received on a Wednesday.

Dont want to get to much into this as ill get upset but this...

The care is nothing like as good at weekends in my experience sadly

[Doobs]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

No.  It is almost certainly nothing to do with this.  Young people die much less frequently than old people.  So even if young people died far more at the weekend then it wouldn't cause much of a blip.  The study adjusted for reason for admission anyway.

I think the issue is almost certainly lower medical care available at weekends. Whether it is GPs, junior doctors or consultants is another debate.   Also should people who become doctors accept that their vocation means that they should accept weekend working and night working more readily than others? 

Shouldn't we just accept that doctors already work hard, deserve extra for working weekends, and accept that there will always be more deaths at the weekend.  People simply expect too much from the NHS?

Well I suppose you have to ask yourself how you would feel if it was your dad or son that died on a Sunday because the care they got wasn't as good as that they would have received on a Wednesday.

Probably not the best time to personalise the argument with me.  It was midweek FWIW.

You think doctors should be forced to work as often on a Sunday as a Monday?  They should have to work nights too?  Problem is the very people who think junior doctors should work less also want the NHS to be perfect.

Doctors are pretty good people in my eyes, the NHS is a good service, neither it nor doctors are perfect. 

[RED-DOG]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

No.  It is almost certainly nothing to do with this.  Young people die much less frequently than old people.  So even if young people died far more at the weekend then it wouldn't cause much of a blip.  The study adjusted for reason for admission anyway.

I think the issue is almost certainly lower medical care available at weekends. Whether it is GPs, junior doctors or consultants is another debate.   Also should people who become doctors accept that their vocation means that they should accept weekend working and night working more readily than others? 

Shouldn't we just accept that doctors already work hard, deserve extra for working weekends, and accept that there will always be more deaths at the weekend.  People simply expect too much from the NHS?

Well I suppose you have to ask yourself how you would feel if it was your dad or son that died on a Sunday because the care they got wasn't as good as that they would have received on a Wednesday.

Probably not the best time to personalise the argument with me.  It was midweek FWIW.

You think doctors should be forced to work as often on a Sunday as a Monday?  They should have to work nights too?  Problem is the very people who think junior doctors should work less also want the NHS to be perfect.



Doctors are pretty good people in my eyes, the NHS is a good service, neither it nor doctors are perfect. 

Yes I think doctors should have to work night's and Sundays, just like any other shift workers in essential jobs.

I also think there should be more of them and they should be paid handsomely.

Unfortunately, this argument, if that's what you want to call it, is personal to me too.

FWIW I agree with the blolded statement.

[david3103]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

No.  It is almost certainly nothing to do with this.  Young people die much less frequently than old people.  So even if young people died far more at the weekend then it wouldn't cause much of a blip.  The study adjusted for reason for admission anyway.

I think the issue is almost certainly lower medical care available at weekends. Whether it is GPs, junior doctors or consultants is another debate.   Also should people who become doctors accept that their vocation means that they should accept weekend working and night working more readily than others? 

Shouldn't we just accept that doctors already work hard, deserve extra for working weekends, and accept that there will always be more deaths at the weekend.  People simply expect too much from the NHS?

Well I suppose you have to ask yourself how you would feel if it was your dad or son that died on a Sunday because the care they got wasn't as good as that they would have received on a Wednesday.

Probably not the best time to personalise the argument with me.  It was midweek FWIW.

You think doctors should be forced to work as often on a Sunday as a Monday?  They should have to work nights too?  Problem is the very people who think junior doctors should work less also want the NHS to be perfect.



Doctors are pretty good people in my eyes, the NHS is a good service, neither it nor doctors are perfect. 

Yes I think doctors should have to work night's and Sundays, just like any other shift workers in essential jobs.

I also think there should be more of them and they should be paid handsomely.

Unfortunately, this argument, if that's what you want to call it, is personal to me too.

FWIW I agree with the blolded statement.

@doobs, surely young people die with the same frequency as old people. Once in a lifetime.

Tom is right, doctors and other medical staff should accept that their vocation includes working weekends. Their contracts should reflect this.
If we need more doctors for that then we should eliminate a layer or two from the administration/management to clear some funds for training.

[Doobs]

I hesitate to ever say the Tories have got a point but..

Isn't the statistic that you're 15% more likely to die if admitted into hospital as an emergency on a Saturday compared to a Wednesday rather worrying?

It's worrying, but without knowing why it's a rather vague worry.

Far more likely to be admitted to hospital on a Saturday from alcohol fuelled violent crime surely and hence much more likely to die than on a Weds?  Surely it is that simple isn't it?

No.  It is almost certainly nothing to do with this.  Young people die much less frequently than old people.  So even if young people died far more at the weekend then it wouldn't cause much of a blip.  The study adjusted for reason for admission anyway.

I think the issue is almost certainly lower medical care available at weekends. Whether it is GPs, junior doctors or consultants is another debate.   Also should people who become doctors accept that their vocation means that they should accept weekend working and night working more readily than others? 

Shouldn't we just accept that doctors already work hard, deserve extra for working weekends, and accept that there will always be more deaths at the weekend.  People simply expect too much from the NHS?

Well I suppose you have to ask yourself how you would feel if it was your dad or son that died on a Sunday because the care they got wasn't as good as that they would have received on a Wednesday.

Probably not the best time to personalise the argument with me.  It was midweek FWIW.

You think doctors should be forced to work as often on a Sunday as a Monday?  They should have to work nights too?  Problem is the very people who think junior doctors should work less also want the NHS to be perfect.



Doctors are pretty good people in my eyes, the NHS is a good service, neither it nor doctors are perfect. 

Yes I think doctors should have to work night's and Sundays, just like any other shift workers in essential jobs.

I also think there should be more of them and they should be paid handsomely.

Unfortunately, this argument, if that's what you want to call it, is personal to me too.

FWIW I agree with the blolded statement.

@doobs, surely young people die with the same frequency as old people. Once in a lifetime.

Tom is right, doctors and other medical staff should accept that their vocation includes working weekends. Their contracts should reflect this.
If we need more doctors for that then we should eliminate a layer or two from the administration/management to clear some funds for training.

Frequency is measured per unit of time.  If you observed 1000 70 year olds over a year and a 1000 21 year olds, far more of the 70 year olds will die.   

I accept that if we force doctors to work just as frequently at weekends and nights than we do on weekday daytime then we should equalise the mortality experience over all time periods*.  But I don't think it is that simple, because if you make a job less desirable then you end up with less people willing to do it.  It is my understanding we have a shortage of medical professionals already in this country. 

In my head this means that after the change to forced weekend/night working, we are bound to have less doctors overall, so we could easily end up with a worse mortality experience in total despite having equal mortality rates across the week.  Hence the best solution could be accepting that weekends will always be the worst time to get sick, even if it seems an awful thing to read on first reading. 

* well we wouldn't quite manage this as we would still get more deaths in the winter. 

[The Camel]

I heard an interview with a woman whose mother was termally ill, in considerable pain and would only live another week or so.

On a Sunday it took 8 hours for her to see a doctor who could write her a prescription for morphine.

It's one case and might be a mix up.

But this is unacceptable.

[DaveShoelace]

Love this thread, there are so many political issues which cause a massive conflict within me (As, I think, they should. If you think you have the definitive answer, especially if it's a far right or a far left answer, then IMO you are probably looking at things with blinkers on) and I find you get a nice balance of views within these virtual walls. Gonna start asking some broad questions which have been causing the ol conflict over the next few days.

Question of the day:

If we leave out the top 1%, the massive corporations, the oil barrons, the royals, the amazons and googles etc (Basically everyone where we assume there is a disproportionate amount of wealth relative to what they have done to get it), and assume we are left with a pool of regular working people from cleaning ladies to doctors, is it fair that the richest ones get taxed more?

[TightEnd]

Love this thread, there are so many political issues which cause a massive conflict within me (As, I think, they should. If you think you have the definitive answer, especially if it's a far right or a far left answer, then IMO you are probably looking at things with blinkers on) and I find you get a nice balance of views within these virtual walls. Gonna start asking some broad questions which have been causing the ol conflict over the next few days.

Question of the day:

If we leave out the top 1%, the massive corporations, the oil barrons, the royals, the amazons and googles etc (Basically everyone where we assume there is a disproportionate amount of wealth relative to what they have done to get it), and assume we are left with a pool of regular working people from cleaning ladies to doctors, is it fair that the richest ones get taxed more?

Yes, though not at the levels that are punitive and are a disincentive to wealth creation or mean people move away

i think Corbyn and McDonnell are suggesting they woudl stick with 50% top rate (happy to be corrected, but think i saw that)

the main issues as i see it are

- tax avoidance by non-doms, corporations etc and how to lower that

- and at the other end of the scale, policy on tax credits and poverty issues

[DaveShoelace]

Love this thread, there are so many political issues which cause a massive conflict within me (As, I think, they should. If you think you have the definitive answer, especially if it's a far right or a far left answer, then IMO you are probably looking at things with blinkers on) and I find you get a nice balance of views within these virtual walls. Gonna start asking some broad questions which have been causing the ol conflict over the next few days.

Question of the day:

If we leave out the top 1%, the massive corporations, the oil barrons, the royals, the amazons and googles etc (Basically everyone where we assume there is a disproportionate amount of wealth relative to what they have done to get it), and assume we are left with a pool of regular working people from cleaning ladies to doctors, is it fair that the richest ones get taxed more?

Yes, though not at the levels that are punitive and are a disincentive to wealth creation or mean people move away

i think Corbyn and McDonnell are suggesting they woudl stick with 50% top rate (happy to be corrected, but think i saw that)

the main issues as i see it are

- tax avoidance by non-doms, corporations etc and how to lower that

- and at the other end of the scale, policy on tax credits and poverty issues

I read a book this week that had quite a lot of evidence to support that tax avoidance costs this country 70 times more than benefits fraud (£70 billion to £1 billion to be precise). Which was actually the catalyst for me thinking about this issue more.

[horseplayer]

Love this thread, there are so many political issues which cause a massive conflict within me (As, I think, they should. If you think you have the definitive answer, especially if it's a far right or a far left answer, then IMO you are probably looking at things with blinkers on) and I find you get a nice balance of views within these virtual walls. Gonna start asking some broad questions which have been causing the ol conflict over the next few days.

Question of the day:

If we leave out the top 1%, the massive corporations, the oil barrons, the royals, the amazons and googles etc (Basically everyone where we assume there is a disproportionate amount of wealth relative to what they have done to get it), and assume we are left with a pool of regular working people from cleaning ladies to doctors, is it fair that the richest ones get taxed more?

Yes, though not at the levels that are punitive and are a disincentive to wealth creation or mean people move away

i think Corbyn and McDonnell are suggesting they woudl stick with 50% top rate (happy to be corrected, but think i saw that)

the main issues as i see it are

- tax avoidance by non-doms, corporations etc and how to lower that

- and at the other end of the scale, policy on tax credits and poverty issues

I read a book this week that had quite a lot of evidence to support that tax avoidance costs this country 70 times more than benefits fraud (£70 billion to £1 billion to be precise). Which was actually the catalyst for me thinking about this issue more.

Not sure on the exact figures but that sounds about right.

But there can be no doubt the media coverage of the two is nothing like balanced in the way it should be.

The reason for that is obvious.