The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[titaniumbean]

We go to Syria and Iraq and kill them.  I don't understand your bewilderment.

define them.

I cant tell if you are trying to troll, you don't normally so I'm confused.


Who would we fight? Muslims? Syrians? non whites? non americans? define 'the baddies'. What uniform do they wear?

isis is a defined group controlling territory.  The first step should be entirely destroying that "organisation" in that territory.  The next step should be to identify other networks and propaganda groups in the middle east and elsewhere and eradicate them.  

Anyone disseminating murderous ideology from a "safe haven" should be quite clear that they can expect a drone through their window or if operating in a western country, life imprisonment.

Like 'the taliban' were a group we could fight with war..... You make it all sound so easy, yet nothing you say is substantive. "oh yeh well just kill em all".... MURICA fuk yeh. If you haven't noticed America has been spamming the middle easy and africa with drones for years, and only made things worse. Yet you seem to suggest it's a simple fix.

Try watching this for some context on how these things play out longterm and the state in which the west who truly give no real fucks about the middle east region beyond Iran not nuking everyone and Isreal backing their political parties financially has previously played out.

[RickBFA]

I think we have this problem for the next 10-20 years minimum.

No easy answers but we have to take out their leadership and try to counter their PR machine which recruits marginalised Muslims.

The only possibly solution I can see is to eliminate the massive wealth disparity between the West and the rest of the world.

If what they have in life was better than what they think awaits them by dying a martyr, then perhaps they'd think twice before blowing themselves to smithereens.

I won't hold my breath waiting for global inequality to be solved.

Better come up with plan B.

[titaniumbean]

andrew

last night saw 8 bombers/terrorists, not a lone wolf

all of whom get grenades, kalashnikovs etc onto french soil etc and used them in multiple locations with no warning

do you not think that is a French intelligence failing?

Absolutely.

I think 9/11 and Boston and London and Mumbai are all intelligence failings.


They have had the capacity to hack and spy blanket style with NO regulation for years, and we stopped nothing. Why will more now suddenly benefit us?

[nirvana]

there are some good articles around on ISIS

"The larger question of course is whether such an integral pillar of the region (albeit shockingly violent and extreme) can be defeated.

Without Western military intervention it is unlikely. "

says Michael Stephens Director of the Royal United Services Institute, Qatar,

at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29004253

where to go?

here for starters

Click to see full-size image.

then probably have to occupy for a generation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29052144

nasty, but no one is giving alternatives

I'd suggest we stop bombing, withdraw, see what things look like in 5 years.

We've proved we don't have the stomach to occupy for a generation in Iraq & Afghanistan and there is no public support for it. We've also proved we don't have the ability to topple regimes and nation build.

Could anyone actually articulate what we are trying to achieve there ? It aint obvious. Seems to me we just add to the death count both on our side and theirs

[TightEnd]

andrew

last night saw 8 bombers/terrorists, not a lone wolf

all of whom get grenades, kalashnikovs etc onto french soil etc and used them in multiple locations with no warning

do you not think that is a French intelligence failing?

Absolutely.

I think 9/11 and Boston and London and Mumbai are all intelligence failings.


They have had the capacity to hack and spy blanket style with NO regulation for years, and we stopped nothing. Why will more now suddenly benefit us?

i'm not sure it will before any event

after all pre and post snowden everyone likely to be involved in this knows not to use their phone/devices to be tracked/monitored

but compare london to paris, and the relative cctv presences. i don't mean to sound callous but which feels like it has more of an integrated CT policy?

[RickBFA]

there are some good articles around on ISIS

"The larger question of course is whether such an integral pillar of the region (albeit shockingly violent and extreme) can be defeated.

Without Western military intervention it is unlikely. "

says Michael Stephens Director of the Royal United Services Institute, Qatar,

at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29004253

where to go?

here for starters

Click to see full-size image.

then probably have to occupy for a generation

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29052144

nasty, but no one is giving alternatives

I'd suggest we stop bombing, withdraw, see what things look like in 5 years.

We've proved we don't have the stomach to occupy for a generation in Iraq & Afghanistan and there is no public support for it. We've also proved we don't have the ability to topple regimes and nation build.

Could anyone actually articulate what we are trying to achieve there ? It aint obvious. Seems to me we just add to the death count both on our side and theirs

This is the problem isn't it. We go in and create even bigger problems, well that's what we have done in the recent past.

Going into Iraq was total madness. Saddam Hussein was a manageable problem in the bigger picture, perversely he kept a lid on the issues in Iraq.

Going into Afghanistan was almost as crazy. It would have been smarter to do a deal with the Taliban to get rid of Al Qaeda rather than spending billions and costing so many of our own soldiers lives.

To a point we are reaping what we have sown from our delusional belief that Western democracy can work in the Middle East.  

[titaniumbean]

andrew

last night saw 8 bombers/terrorists, not a lone wolf

all of whom get grenades, kalashnikovs etc onto french soil etc and used them in multiple locations with no warning

do you not think that is a French intelligence failing?

Absolutely.

I think 9/11 and Boston and London and Mumbai are all intelligence failings.


They have had the capacity to hack and spy blanket style with NO regulation for years, and we stopped nothing. Why will more now suddenly benefit us?

i'm not sure it will before any event

after all pre and post snowden everyone likely to be involved in this knows not to use their phone/devices to be tracked/monitored

but compare london to paris, and the relative cctv presences. i don't mean to sound callous but which feels like it has more of an integrated CT policy?

They all knew PRE Snowdon. no one vaguely important gets caught in the basic dragnet.


Please, state your opinions without fear that people denigrate them or take offence. Everyone must be able to discuss this like adults like we are, and listen to each other, if anyone anywhere is going to have a chance at any kind of resolution.

I see nothing crass in pointing out the superiority of our cctv system, we still have the adjustments to road layout from the IRA in London with the boxes empty and never manned (maybe they are on days like today). We have been through periods of intense fear but we have to make logical and reasonable decisions not react inanely and let the gutter press splash their headlines and sow their doubts about whole religions and cultures.

If you are going to be martyr'd though why does CCTV put you off, it just adds a nice video feed for people to watch back afterwards and celebrate. if anything our Island'ness (sic) is our strongest defence from those from outside not CCTV or tech, what with Europe and schengen and so many long long land borders. How much did our cctv and tech stop the guy in Woolwich or the people on 7/7?


In that BBC article with the coloured dots, half if not more of those 'factions/bad guys/fighters etc' are people WE (the West) have funded and armed. Let's keep repeating that until we realise we are dealing with our own failings, not some unimaginable foreign assailant threat.

[The Camel]

The difference between Britain and France is the French have a higher % of Muslims living there and many live in more extreme poverty with less prospects than British Muslims.

Add in a large racist presence in French society; discrimaintion is rife.

They have alot of perfect candidates for radicalisation.

[titaniumbean]

The difference between Britain and France is the French have a higher % of Muslims living there and many live in more extreme poverty with less prospects than British Muslims.

Add in a large racist presence in French society; discrimaintion is rife.

They have alot of perfect candidates for radicalisation.

which is why they make such a better target than a country that isn't as susceptible to having people join their cause.

We must remember 'the enemy we are at war with' are under funded, out manned, out gunned, out tech'ed. They only have fear, so using guerilla style warfare tactics they try to achieve maximum affect from as little outlay/effort as possible. Hence small cells conducting attacks to spread fear and divide populaces rather than some trench warfare war that is all we seem to understand.

[The Camel]

This tweet summed it up nicely.




@FlygerianFiddy 9m9 minutes ago

Great The Way Cameron Says Terrorism Is An Attack Against Our Freedom, Then When There's Terrorism, He Takes Away More Of Our 'Freedom'

[nirvana]

The difference between Britain and France is the French have a higher % of Muslims living there and many live in more extreme poverty with less prospects than British Muslims.

Add in a large racist presence in French society; discrimaintion is rife.

They have alot of perfect candidates for radicalisation.

which is why they make such a better target than a country that isn't as susceptible to having people join their cause.

We must remember 'the enemy we are at war with' are under funded, out manned, out gunned, out tech'ed. They only have fear, so using guerilla style warfare tactics they try to achieve maximum affect from as little outlay/effort as possible. Hence small cells conducting attacks to spread fear and divide populaces rather than some trench warfare war that is all we seem to understand.

Such a good point. This was a horrific set of attacks. Attacks from ISIS seem to make people feel more threatened than the countless terrorist attacks that have happened in Europe over the last 40 years or so. Not trying to make any equivalence points or anything like that as I don't know but I do wonder why this is ?

Is it social media, rolling news related or in European terms, are we actually under a greater terrorist threat than we were accustomed to for most of my life

[RickBFA]

This tweet summed it up nicely.




@FlygerianFiddy 9m9 minutes ago

Great The Way Cameron Says Terrorism Is An Attack Against Our Freedom, Then When There's Terrorism, He Takes Away More Of Our 'Freedom'

Not an easy position for any government though is it?

Don't do the level of monitoring they want to and when we get attacked get pulled to pieces for not doing enough.

I have no problem with them looking at anything I do personally if they can minimise and reduce the risks of innocent people here getting massacred.

[titaniumbean]

The difference between Britain and France is the French have a higher % of Muslims living there and many live in more extreme poverty with less prospects than British Muslims.

Add in a large racist presence in French society; discrimaintion is rife.

They have alot of perfect candidates for radicalisation.

which is why they make such a better target than a country that isn't as susceptible to having people join their cause.

We must remember 'the enemy we are at war with' are under funded, out manned, out gunned, out tech'ed. They only have fear, so using guerilla style warfare tactics they try to achieve maximum affect from as little outlay/effort as possible. Hence small cells conducting attacks to spread fear and divide populaces rather than some trench warfare war that is all we seem to understand.

Such a good point. This was a horrific set of attacks. Attacks from ISIS seem to make people feel more threatened than the countless terrorist attacks that have happened in Europe over the last 40 years or so. Not trying to make any equivalence points or anything like that as I don't know but I do wonder why this is ?

Is it social media, rolling news related or in European terms, are we actually under a greater terrorist threat than we were accustomed to for most of my life

We have twitter updates from non journalists long before 'any confirmed reports' come in on the main news stations. We have the ability to be instantly informed from anyone with any agenda, and so very few people are willing to be critical, to reflect on motives, or to even question who is saying what.

20 years ago you might have got a phone call on your land line to turn on the TV or wireless to listen to the news, which was being broadcast long after everything had calmed down, now you see tweets of the guy running away at the very start and from then on the hysteria spreads. Even when it was clear there was a hostage situation and clearly the 'bad guys' can check fucking twitter or the televisions, the media are so desperate to be in the public eye that they excitedly proclaim how the heavily armed police are moving in. OH FUCKING THANKS BRO really needed you to update every one about the movements of the swat unit trying to save the lives of those inside. Best get a live feed and keep them fully up to date at all times, let them know which exits/entrances to watch and which weaponry they are about to face.  No one seems to have concern for their actions or be willing to take any responsibility for them, be it via reporting, geo political policies etc.


Now 'journalism' falls into only a few categories. Repeat what the government leaks to you and tells you to say; talk about the top 10 things of xyz; or question and criticise the decisions of those in power only to be condemned, spied upon and oppressed. The myth of the free press is frustrating, so few people control the media, so few people regulate the media, yet there are no other avenues for people to be informed. So instead of informed democratic debates and discussion you get reactionary bigoted and conniving policies implemented quickly during a time of fear that then egress us towards more and more bad positions all the while failing to account for how we got ourselves into these messes in the first place. Guess what I think is one of the ways for everyone to become better informed and educated.... oh yeh the thing they are trying to monitor, to stop people thinking freely, that thing they claim to know how to use whilst having 15 year olds out wit them. The internet is magnifying the problems we face because we suddenly actually know about them, yet at the same time we are allowing the same biases and groups with exorbitant power to take control of it and force feed us the same shit.

[The Camel]

This tweet summed it up nicely.




@FlygerianFiddy 9m9 minutes ago

Great The Way Cameron Says Terrorism Is An Attack Against Our Freedom, Then When There's Terrorism, He Takes Away More Of Our 'Freedom'

Not an easy position for any government though is it?

Don't do the level of monitoring they want to and when we get attacked get pulled to pieces for not doing enough.

I have no problem with them looking at anything I do personally if they can minimise and reduce the risks of innocent people here getting massacred.

To my way of thinking, if we give up freedoms (or have them taken away from us), then the terrorists have won.

[titaniumbean]

This tweet summed it up nicely.




@FlygerianFiddy 9m9 minutes ago

Great The Way Cameron Says Terrorism Is An Attack Against Our Freedom, Then When There's Terrorism, He Takes Away More Of Our 'Freedom'

Not an easy position for any government though is it?

Don't do the level of monitoring they want to and when we get attacked get pulled to pieces for not doing enough.

I have no problem with them looking at anything I do personally if they can minimise and reduce the risks of innocent people here getting massacred.

They have been doing it for years, outlaying billions and billions and we just see the scale and success of attacks increase. It shouldn't be the basis of our defence.

When you look at the evidence for the number of plots they have stopped because of their spying, there are none of note. Yet when you look at the number of international laws they have broken, the fact they even eavesdropped on the international committee designed to discuss their eavesdropping and law breaking, and the number of times they have used 'their counter terrorism SKILLS' to gain economically and politically you realise you are accepting that our fear of one kind of mindset of people is leading us to erode our own freedoms our own rights, and our own abilities to be a democracy that we champion to the rest of the world about so gleefully.