The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[The Camel]

I want to support Corbyn, I really really do.

The manner in which the press has been purposely taking everything out of context that he does has meant that everything I see about him, I have to go searching for the full context/full interview etc, because it's now got to the point that everything we see is conservative spin.

I don't really agree with his policies, but I really respect the man, his honesty and his motives.

This shoot-to-kill thing might be the final nail in the coffin for me though. The nuclear deterant thing really worried me, this one seems even stupider. Not only is it a tremendously stupid stance, it is also a dangerous one. If our protectors can't shoot to kill, then the UK would be the number one target in Europe for this shit.

I assume what Jeremy thinks is if we don't use military force against anyone, then the terrorists will not consider the UK to be a target.

[doubleup]

Surely even natural Corbyn supporters must realise that his position on shoot to kill policy is away with the fairies.

Just watched the interview and whilst everyone would agree stopping the situation arising would be ideal, Corbyn really does live in some alternative universe that has no relation to real life.

He is either a pure idiot or has some mental dis-functioning that makes it impossible for him to consider a situation and make a rational decision, instead falling back on childlike "principles".

[horseplayer]

Not sure how it would make the UK the number one target. In fact you could argue it would reduce our threat level if we withheld all activity abroad.

These people don't care about being killed kind of comes with the terrority.

I don't know what the answer is but bombing the training camps is very likely to cause more heartache at least in the short term.

[AlunB]

Surely even natural Corbyn supporters must realise that his position on shoot to kill policy is away with the fairies.

Just watched the interview and whilst everyone would agree stopping the situation arising would be ideal, Corbyn really does live in some alternative universe that has no relation to real life.

He is either a pure idiot or has some mental dis-functioning that makes it impossible for him to consider a situation and make a rational decision, instead falling back on childlike "principles".

Or, just possibly, neither of those things?

[AlunB]

After the issue was raised by an MP at a meeting of the parliamentary party, a Labour aide clarified that Corbyn was “committed to what the existing law is, that any armed action by the police has to be proportionate to the threat”.

“That is always the test that is put when it comes to any incident when police kill anyone,” the aide added.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/16/corbyn-against-shoot-to-kill-uk-paris-attacks-labour

I'd hope that is what he actually meant, but who knows.

[DaveShoelace]

Not sure how it would make the UK the number one target. In fact you could argue it would reduce our threat level if we withheld all activity abroad.

These people don't care about being killed kind of comes with the terrority.

I don't know what the answer is but bombing the training camps is very likely to cause more heartache at least in the short term.

But still pragmatically speaking, you can guarantee a much more successful massacre if nobody is going to be shooting at you.

I'm aware this mentality is probably the beginning of where you eventually start agreeing with Donald Trump.

[TightEnd]

France has just invoked this solidarity clause, Article 42.7 of Lisbon Treaty in response to the Paris Attacks

[bobAlike]

Click to see full-size image.

[TightEnd]

Could Paris make strains inside Labour impossible to contain?

BBC Political editor

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34844762

[titaniumbean]

setting foreign policy is quite tough for a pacifist, and trying to get it in tune with wider opinion both in the aprty and publically

Don't see that Hilary Benn and Corbyn agree on much really

Benn supports shoot to kill, Corbyn doesn't

Benn supports the bombing and killing of Jihadi John, Corbyn questions it

its almost as if JC lives in another world. of course no one wants shoot to kill, and mistakes like Menezes are very sad, but if an armed response officer comes across a suicide bomber armed with a kalashnikov in a public place what is he meant to do?

similarly, are we meant to walk into the middle of raqqa, knock on John's front door and ask him to come quietly?

last nights PLP sounds fun

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/16/jeremy-corbyn-attacked-by_n_8578184.html

THIS. he needs a swift lesson in leadership and game theory. He seems to have no concept of anything but saying nice gently gently things. However refreshing that being the default thought is there is a time and a place to use force. Stepping up and acknowledging that is part of being a leader, not even a good one, just a leader.

Politics is such a farce, he seems to be one slight minuscule glimmer of hope amongst a large selection of turds and yet at every turn he gives his opponents the loaded gun he's not willing to shoot and unsurprisingly they use it to shoot him in the knackers   

With previous reporting I was wanting to believe that it was taken out of context and was more disgusting spin, but he's doing the work for them. Better than they could have alone if he'd stayed quiet.


Alistair Campbell also going out of his way to show the kind of scum he was and is. not really shocked he was involved with Blair and Iraq and is so proud of his track record. horrible plebs.



It also feels kind of foolish to be thinking about a shoot to kill policy, we aren't America, we don't just shoot our civilians for the sake of it, and our police can and do fire their weapons based on their own decisions. It just so happens we have high levels of training and responsibility unlike America. It's not as if unless our PM gives the order do the police shoot, so in that way the whole point of the article/specific interview question is just to highlight how incompetent a leader he is as a person.

[TightEnd]

"A number of Labourites are very worried about the impact that Jeremy Corbyn’s shoot-to-kill comments will have on the party’s chances in the Oldham West and Royton by-election. They think it is the latest in a line of incidents that will suggest to voters in that seat that the Labour leader isn’t really thinking about things that they worry about, and is more focused on the things that London types worry about.

I understand that those involved in the campaign are worried the party is already in trouble, anyway. They believe that Corbyn is going down very badly with the large numbers of white working class voters in the seat, and that even though the South Asian population are largely turning to Labour, this will not create enough of a lead for the party to be able to sustain big white working class losses to Ukip. The Tory vote in the seat is also turning to Nigel Farage’s party, which has led sources to conclude that if Ukip does campaign hard and well, it could win."

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/labour-in-a-spot-of-bother-in-oldham-west-by-election/

ukip 8/1 yesterday

[titaniumbean]

"A number of Labourites are very worried about the impact that Jeremy Corbyn’s shoot-to-kill comments will have on the party’s chances in the Oldham West and Royton by-election. They think it is the latest in a line of incidents that will suggest to voters in that seat that the Labour leader isn’t really thinking about things that they worry about, and is more focused on the things that London types worry about.

I understand that those involved in the campaign are worried the party is already in trouble, anyway. They believe that Corbyn is going down very badly with the large numbers of white working class voters in the seat, and that even though the South Asian population are largely turning to Labour, this will not create enough of a lead for the party to be able to sustain big white working class losses to Ukip. The Tory vote in the seat is also turning to Nigel Farage’s party, which has led sources to conclude that if Ukip does campaign hard and well, it could win."

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/labour-in-a-spot-of-bother-in-oldham-west-by-election/

ukip 8/1 yesterday

Surely it's London not Oldham that is going to get attacked so that wouldn't be their personal priorities?

Similarly if the voters were better educated and informed would they not just make better decisions rather than all voting UKIP?! So because the voters are stupid, lets focus on stupid points, stupid arguments and petty politicising of really important issues.

classic politics..... stay classy media and politicians.

[DungBeetle]

Calling voters stupid for thinking about voting UKIP hardly seems enlightening debate.  Voters have concerns (real or imagined).  UKIP are seemingly listening.  Corbyn likely isn't.

[Woodsey]

Calling voters stupid for thinking about voting UKIP hardly seems enlightening debate.  Voters have concerns (real or imagined).  UKIP are seemingly listening.  Corbyn likely isn't.

Anybody to the right on here is stupid and uneducated mate, haven't you learned that by now? If you don't agree with some of the lefty views you need re-educating cus they can't be wrong innit? 

[titaniumbean]

Calling voters stupid for thinking about voting UKIP hardly seems enlightening debate.  Voters have concerns (real or imagined).  UKIP are seemingly listening.  Corbyn likely isn't.

UKIP are clearly not a highly intelligent choice, our system is stupid if we have to vote for them because there is no one else electable.

You cant honestly think the vast majority of voters have much of a clue about actual facts, hardly surprising given our media but nonetheless frustrating and upsetting.


Look how extreme, and staged the American response to the recent attacks are, purely petty point scoring based in ignorance.