The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[aaron1867]

Much as I'm against a second ref in principle - I'm really concerned that a GE at this time will reinforce even more strongly the divisions that exist in the country over something that was a non-issue for most voters 4 or 5 years ago.

Making a GE about a single issue may suit both major parties at the moment in their scramble to Govern but it seems a really bad idea. The electorate are not going to be presented with a serious choice around a raft of issues, instead, parties (particularly on the remain side but perhaps on the Brexit side too) will seek to gerrymander the result through various pacts - principle and conviction seems to have gone so far out the window that it's hard to imagine it climbing back in.

I can't imagine any GE outcome that would ensure a sensible Brexit approach across parliament. I have complete disdain for all MPs on the extreme remain side, Labour have been a huge disappointment to me since the 2017 election. The Tory approach of excluding the rest of parliament for a couple of years of the process to pander to their nutter wing has been a huge disappointment too. I don't think I want to vote for any of them in a GE, particularly if my choices have been manipulated in advance.

Reluctantly (for the nth time since this process began) I'm starting to think that a ref is the best way forward even if we've been manipulated into this view by the political classes.

I think all the value will be with the party who campaigns hard for domestic issues

That's Corbyn (and I am not a fan) anti corporate, NHS, anti austerity, renationalisation particularly of rail all poll very well

The man is the problem, not the unpopularity of his policies

Disagree. I think Brits are in the mood to roll up sleeves and get shit done. Corbs calling for strikes and protests in Brexit perhaps general strike, nationalisation, high tax, Jewish racialism, comrade leftie, utter vagabond, avoid election, flip flop Brexit position, powder blue jacket. The man hasn’t got a prayer. The leader defines the party and they should be sailing ahead in the polls.

Anyhow the ‘end of austerity’ strat and extra spending means BoJo has beat him to it. If Boris can get himself in cuffs fighting to deliver Brexit for the people it will be gold.

Agree

People I talk to are sick of the whole thing and admire Boris for at least trying to get things done, this as won him support amongst the public

Remain voters I know are now for leaving due to the arrogance of Brussels and the stubbornness of the remain politicians

Exactly this. it is only the complete stubbornness of a noisy minority that want their own way, that are really stopping this from happening.

I was feeling as I started to read the last two pages, fuck it. Have a second ref, vote it down and watch what happens over the next couple of years. However the last couple of posts have re-energised me and I'm back on board the No, get out and see it through bandwagon.

Of course you agree with this, it's a pro-brexit argument. This is exactly what you've been trying to say, right?

The reality of this is that there are hundreds of people on either side of the argument that would vote differently if there was a second vote. This second vote isn't there to stop Brexit, it's there so that we can put a clearer choice to the people & put an end to Brexit once and for all.

The whole reason that Brexit hasn't happened is that people both sides of the argument aren't willing to compromise. Parties shouldn't be voting against any deal because they want to stop Brexit. Neither should people be voting against it because they believe in no deal or a "clean brexit"

There isn't any majority for no deal, remainers and brexiteers do not want this and we shouldn't be faced with this. There should now come a time that a second vote is the only way to go. Or indeed we void Brexit, because we can't keep on like this.

[aaron1867]

France have said they may veto an extension. Such a joke. It's easy to watch on and think you could do better. This was never going to be easy to implement.

[typhoon13]

At this rate the Italians will be out before us

[Longines]

Exactly this. it is only the complete stubbornness of a noisy minority that want their own way, that are really stopping this from happening.

A quick reminder that if the ERG had joined BoJo, JRM, IDS, Raab etc. in voting to leave on 29 March then we'd be out by now.

[nirvana]

It's ok. It was a brief moment of weakness.

I'm back.

Haha, talk me round too

[BigAdz]

Exactly this. it is only the complete stubbornness of a noisy minority that want their own way, that are really stopping this from happening.

A quick reminder that if the ERG had joined BoJo, JRM, IDS, Raab etc. in voting to leave on 29 March then we'd be out by now.

Not sure I mentioned any particular group apart from the noisy group!

[MANTIS01]

If we had a second referendum Brexit would not be over. We either go back to square one and Remain still think they know best. Or Millions vote for Leave again but narrowly lose out...

Every incident from that day forward is because we stayed in. All social infrastructure issues, Housing shortages, NHS funding, school places, crime, future euro bailouts, EU army, entangled in the future collapse, Euro currency misfortune, deterioration of relationships elsewhere eg US/China, any problems at all and it’s because we didn’t respect the first result. The split has happened and it won’t ever heal. Wonder if Remain ever consider the ‘after care’ of their divisive behaviour?

[TightEnd]

if May had not set those hard red lines and lost her majority subsequently we would also be out. those red lines were set to appease the ERG, not remain voters who hated them.

Nothing to do with those who voted remain, just a lazy narrative to blame them still from some leavers who think very one dimensionally

[BigAdz]

if May had not set those hard red lines and lost her majority subsequently we would also be out. those red lines were set to appease the ERG, not remain voters who hated them.

Nothing to do with those who voted remain, just a lazy narrative to blame them still from some leavers who think very one dimensionally

The sub plot may have narrative, but the vote is very one dimensional, yes/no/stay/go. Its no more complex than that, as they are the only options currently available.

Us one dimensionals can still suss that one out.

[TightEnd]

that is not the case

once there was the decision to leave, there were strategies (softer red lines) and tactics (no election, no pro-roguing parliament, ERG voting for the WA) that could have avoided this at multiple points over the last few years

No one comes out of it with credit, not least the remainers who also voted against the WA especially those in the Labour party who i would think will be roundly punished at the election for doing so, but to say that they are being divisive now when they are acting in the national interest to avoid no deal (and protect parliamentary sovereignty in doing so)..NOTE not trying to stop leaving with a deal, really does take the biscuit.

The government, the ERG and hard leavers in general have to own this, and won't.

Easier to blame the other side. Plus ca change.

[BigAdz]

that is not the case

once there was the decision to leave, there were strategies (softer red lines) and tactics (no election, no pro-roguing parliament, ERG voting for the WA) that could have avoided this at multiple points over the last few years

No one comes out of it with credit, not least the remainers who also voted against the WA especially those in the Labour party who i would think will be roundly punished at the election for doing so, but to say that they are being divisive now when they are acting in the national interest to avoid no deal (and protect parliamentary sovereignty in doing so)..NOTE not trying to stop leaving with a deal, really does take the biscuit.

The government, the ERG and hard leavers in general have to own this, and won't.

Easier to blame the other side. Plus ca change.

So the options aren't/weren't stay or go? That is what I said, and you said that is not the case.

In my one dimensional world, that was all I was asked to vote on.

Have there been other options that I have missed? In which case that is the case.....

[aaron1867]

If we had a second referendum Brexit would not be over. We either go back to square one and Remain still think they know best. Or Millions vote for Leave again but narrowly lose out...

Every incident from that day forward is because we stayed in. All social infrastructure issues, Housing shortages, NHS funding, school places, crime, future euro bailouts, EU army, entangled in the future collapse, Euro currency misfortune, deterioration of relationships elsewhere eg US/China, any problems at all and it’s because we didn’t respect the first result. The split has happened and it won’t ever heal. Wonder if Remain ever consider the ‘after care’ of their divisive behaviour?

Do you genuinely believe that voting leave a second time would still end up with parties blocking Brexit? A second leave vote would put to bed this whole argument.

[TightEnd]

they were the options. they were wholly simplistic options as a simple binary referendum for such a complex issue couldn't possibly be suitable. 17.4m voted leave but they all voted for what they each thought that meant. No one knew for sure, and we are living with the consequences of that now.

to say now "I just want to leave, don't care how" (if i am putting you in that bracket incorrectly, apologies, but i think that is what you are saying) as a segment of the population appears to do strikes me as repeating the mistake that was made in framing the referendum in the way it was.

leaving in that way of course fulfils the democratic wish in 2016, but at the cost of considerable collateral damage that leaving without a deal causes.

[TightEnd]

If we had a second referendum Brexit would not be over. We either go back to square one and Remain still think they know best. Or Millions vote for Leave again but narrowly lose out...

Every incident from that day forward is because we stayed in. All social infrastructure issues, Housing shortages, NHS funding, school places, crime, future euro bailouts, EU army, entangled in the future collapse, Euro currency misfortune, deterioration of relationships elsewhere eg US/China, any problems at all and it’s because we didn’t respect the first result. The split has happened and it won’t ever heal. Wonder if Remain ever consider the ‘after care’ of their divisive behaviour?

Do you genuinely believe that voting leave a second time would still end up with parties blocking Brexit? A second leave vote would put to bed this whole argument.

It wouldn't as you still have the framing difficulties. Even if you have say leave no deal, leave deal, remain that's not fair (splits leave vote). leave no deal or leave deal isn't fair (no remain option). Lots of issues.

A majority in parliament does that, so the ruling party can enact it. In a parliamentary democracy with no majority for any solution, it can't enact it.

At that point we then move onto the nightmare of trade deals and future relationships. Its only the start of it

[Longines]

Do you genuinely believe that voting leave a second time would still end up with parties blocking Brexit? A second leave vote would put to bed this whole argument.

Pretty sure it wouldn't, the nuances of the deal would still provide endless topics for argument.

And as soon as the first IRA bomb/brexit death/zombie apocalypse* happens there will be a rerun of the "well we didn't know this when we voted the first and second times so obviously we need a third vote"


*other triggers may be available.