All in or Fold? Is this a viable tournament strategy?

[AndrewT]

Matt, I think you're still missing the point.

Say this system turns you into a player who would rate as 4/10. If you were a novice (1 or 2 out of 10) then the system would provide a quick and easy way to improve your results.

However, if you were a 7/10, then of course you'd be mad to switch to the system.

Some people don't care about becoming better players, they just want the best chance of making money right now.

[thetank]

Matt, I don't know if your argueing with me or not, but I think your missing the point.

I'm not trying to say that anyone should use the system as a way of playing regularly. I don't think anyone has suggested that. To deny that the system has any value what so ever is wrong. It is very good at what it was designed for. As part of a rounded poker education it is an interesting experiment.

It's early yet, but this is the best post I've read all day. Sums things up perfectly.

[matt674]

Matt, I think you're still missing the point.

Say this system turns you into a player who would rate as 4/10. If you were a novice (1 or 2 out of 10) then the system would provide a quick and easy way to improve your results.

However, if you were a 7/10, then of course you'd be mad to switch to the system.

Some people don't care about becoming better players, they just want the best chance of making money right now.

but then how would you ever improve beyond being a 4/10 player? in fact you would remain as a 1 or 2/10 player but using luck rather than skill to improve your chances slightly.

Surely the best way to make money right now is by learning how to become a 7/10 player??

[Bongo]

I think the system would definately increase my chances of falling asleep at the poker table.

[AndrewT]

but then how would you ever improve beyond being a 4/10 player? in fact you would remain as a 1 or 2/10 player but using luck rather than skill to improve your chances slightly.

Surely the best way to make money right now is by learning how to become a 7/10 player??

Read the last line of my post again.

If you're a 1/10, the best way of making money in x months down the line is to learn how to be a 7/10 player. The best way of making money tonight is to use the 4/10 system.

[matt674]

So tonight the 1 or 2/10 player becomes a 4/10 player for the night, so what does he/she do tomorrow - same again? So tomorrow the 1 or 2/10 player becomes a 4/10 player for the night. In x months time chances are the cycle continues.....

Ok so i'll change the angle i'm coming from here. I am not disputing the fact that the system would slightly improve the chances of a COMPLETE NOVICE. I know that there will be some people who read the forum who are complete novices but i will hazard a guess that the majority (98-99%) do have some form of poker experience in one way shape or form and are therefore NOT complete novices.

As this is a poker forum one of the aims of having such a large community talking and posting about poker one of the benefits is that through the posts and debates is that we can try and learn from each other and improve our game as much as possible. If i were to do a poll with anybody on this forum who thought of themselves as an average or upwards player (say 5 or 6/10 upwards) and asked "Would incorporating the all in or fold system and playing it instead of your normal game increase or decrease your profits?" i'm guessing that the overwhelming majority would say that it would decrease.

Therefore how can anybody advocate playing a system that they wouldnt incorporate themselves? If someone were to come up to me and say "i'm a complete novice - please could you show me how to play?" i wouldn't show them a system that would not be beneficial to them in the long run. Many of the poker professionals on this forum will probably tell you that they are still learning the game now and as the saying goes "texas hold'em - it takes 5 minutes to learn but a lifetime to master". anybody who thinks that they can get a "quick fix" to help improve their results needs to think again

[Wardonkey]

Anyone who does get stuck using the system as a way of playing every tournament they play was never going to be a winning player. The system might just be as good as they were going to get anyway. The others who have the desire and discipline to improve will recognise it for what it is, they may experiment with it briefly but they will soon move on and develop their game.

[AndrewT]

So tonight the 1 or 2/10 player becomes a 4/10 player for the night, so what does he/she do tomorrow - same again? So tomorrow the 1 or 2/10 player becomes a 4/10 player for the night. In x months time chances are the cycle continues.....

The system is aimed at players who are not thinking about how they're going to play in x months time. They just want the best results now.

Therefore how can anybody advocate playing a system that they wouldnt incorporate themselves? If someone were to come up to me and say "i'm a complete novice - please could you show me how to play?" i wouldn't show them a system that would not be beneficial to them in the long run.

Say a complete novice comes up to you and says "I've never played poker before, but I've accepted a challenge from Phil Ivey to play heads-up no-limit for £100,000 - how should I play?"

How would you play against Phil Ivey in this situation? Is this what you would suggest to the novice?

Personally, I'd outline some kind of system to the novice. Even saying "go all-in every hand without looking at your cards" will steer the novice to victory a third of the time. It's not going to make him a better player, but it will be a good strategy for this scenario. And it's entirely different to how I'd play Phil Ivey.

[matt674]

Say a complete novice comes up to you and says "I've never played poker before, but I've accepted a challenge from Phil Ivey to play heads-up no-limit for £100,000 - how should I play?"

How would you play against Phil Ivey in this situation? Is this what you would suggest to the novice?

Keep your money - read about the game, learn by playing small limits and come back in about 10 years time

The question first asked on the thread was: "All-in or fold - is it a viable tournament strategy". Heads up is a different kettle of fish all together......

[AndrewT]

Say a complete novice comes up to you and says "I've never played poker before, but I've accepted a challenge from Phil Ivey to play heads-up no-limit for £100,000 - how should I play?"

How would you play against Phil Ivey in this situation? Is this what you would suggest to the novice?

Keep your money - read about the game, learn by playing small limits and come back in about 10 years time

It's too late for that, he's accepted the challenge and it starts in five minutes. What advice would you give him that would be more likely to succeed than my "Go all-in every hand blind" strategy?

[Bongo]

Don't look at your cards - that way Ivey won't be able to read you.

[mex]

ERRRRR. Whats the point in playing without the fun and invlovment. I play because i enjoy it. This sucks the enjoyment out of the whole thing.
This is pure greed. I Think as an experiment interesting as a way of playing....................go find another bandwagon.

[matt674]

It's too late for that, he's accepted the challenge and it starts in five minutes. What advice would you give him that would be more likely to succeed than my "Go all-in every hand blind" strategy?

My words would be along the lines of "you've seen them do it on celebrity poker club - knock yourself out kid."

I wouldnt attempt to give advice that i wouldnt follow myself and being an MTT monkey if someone asked about heads up advice i would point them in the direction of someone more suitable. If someone asks my advice on MTT's then the first thing i would say is to ask around, if you ask the same question to 10 different people you may well get 4 or 5 different answers depending on their playing style. Then its up to the individual to take the best bits that they think would best suit their own style of play.

<post edit comments: p.s. out of curiosity have you ever played a heads up match where you have just gone all in every hand?

[vampitup]

Seems I have created a hornets nest here! 

Just got back from working for the day and have read and absorbed some great posts.

Firstly may I say this:

I don't know whether the system would ever create a profit in the long term.  That is up for serious debate and testing, and potentially modifications.  Personally I think it could do so online, as you can use it to play x amount of tables at the same time playing on auto pilot. 

As for live poker tournaments, probably not.  I myself would not want to use it live, but online I probably would as you can't get the same reads on players, especially if you multi-table.  Online poker has a more 'no fold em hold em' mentality, and hence this may be the best way to get blind steals in. 

As a tight player, what sort of hand do you need to call an all in from the button on your BB for your whole stack, for example?

I am not debating that a skillful player would be able to make MORE long term than any sort of system, but that is not the argument here.

A point to Matt674, you seem quite anti this system, as it removes the skill element from poker.  Surely Prahlad Friedman, who uses a similar style of playing in high-stakes cash games very successfully, must have some sort of skill to do it, not to mention devising a system in the first place?

I also seem to remember a very similar analogy to the Ivey question in a poker text, saying that if you played heads up with Negreanu your best chance as a novice would be to move in every hand, and then when he takes a stand against you, you have some back up chip wise and probably still a 35-65 shot.

Finally, to all readers of this post.  When you took up poker, did you do so because of your love for the game (even though you never played it before), or to attempt to make money?  I know my answer.  If a system can possibly make more money for you than playing ABC poker then why not go for it?

Also, how has anyone got on trying this?  Anyone brave enough to try it in cash yet?  Gonna have more goes in a minute.  Will be on Poker Stars if anyone is interested (vampitup).

[vampitup]

My dad followed this strategy and came 23rd tonight out of over 500 players on the William Hill tournament he played.  Some quite good results on test at the moment!