Answer Jake's homework for him please.

[Doobs]

Thanks for the posts, really interesting discussion.

I've been oscillating since I saw his homework book. Initially I thought they were terribly worded questions and the teacher just read them differently (the were printed off somewhere on the internet), then I kinda changed my mind and maybe it was a lesson in reading the question properly.

Points to note, these are 9 and 10 year olds answering these questions and it was maths homework, not a comprehension test and Jake says his teacher didn't warn the class to read the questions carefully..

Meh, I really don't know.

Meanwhile, before Jake takes his homework book back to school, here is another of the questions (it was a set of 12)

I bought a card costing £1.76 and a chocolate bar costing 63p. There was a 10% sale that day. How much did I spend?

Ha, very good.

On the basis of once bitten twice shy, presumably the answer is £1.76 + £0.63 = £2.39. 

Given what has happened before, shouldn't we be adding in the amounts spent in the other 11 questions?

Meh, this question seems a lot clearer and gives support to the view that the previous question was also testing comprehension.  I do think you have to put better comments than"X" if you intend to do this though.

[tikay]

Thanks for the posts, really interesting discussion.

I've been oscillating since I saw his homework book. Initially I thought they were terribly worded questions and the teacher just read them differently (the were printed off somewhere on the internet), then I kinda changed my mind and maybe it was a lesson in reading the question properly.

Points to note, these are 9 and 10 year olds answering these questions and it was maths homework, not a comprehension test and Jake says his teacher didn't warn the class to read the questions carefully..

Meh, I really don't know.

Meanwhile, before Jake takes his homework book back to school, here is another of the questions (it was a set of 12)

I bought a card costing £1.76 and a chocolate bar costing 63p. There was a 10% sale that day. How much did I spend?

Ha, very good.

On the basis of once bitten twice shy, presumably the answer is £1.76 + £0.63 = £2.39. 

Given what has happened before, shouldn't we be adding in the amounts spent in the other 11 questions?

Meh, this question seems a lot clearer and gives support to the view that the previous question was also testing comprehension.  I do think you have to put better comments than"X" if you intend to do this though.

100% this.

[DungBeetle]

Thanks for the posts, really interesting discussion.

I've been oscillating since I saw his homework book. Initially I thought they were terribly worded questions and the teacher just read them differently (the were printed off somewhere on the internet), then I kinda changed my mind and maybe it was a lesson in reading the question properly.

Points to note, these are 9 and 10 year olds answering these questions and it was maths homework, not a comprehension test and Jake says his teacher didn't warn the class to read the questions carefully..

Meh, I really don't know.

Meanwhile, before Jake takes his homework book back to school, here is another of the questions (it was a set of 12)

I bought a card costing £1.76 and a chocolate bar costing 63p. There was a 10% sale that day. How much did I spend?

Suggested improvement:

"The shop I go to sells at a mark up of 30%.  I bought a card costing £1.76 and a chocolate bar costing 63p. There was a 10% sale that day. How much did I spend?"

In seriousness, I think these questions are poor.  Kids shouldn't be constantly thinking the examiner is trying to trick them or double bluff them.  Learn the maths and be able to do it quickly without fear of being whooshed.

And if you are going to do it, certainly don't just put a cross without explanation if the kid falls for the semantic trick.  Dreadful way of teaching in my opinion.  Kids will have their confidence eroded for absolutely no reason.

[DungBeetle]

Can't agree with your reasoning David. The ambiguity of the question is apparent immediately to a child or adult but, even as an adult, we are unsure which answer is wanted. It's not cleverly worded - it's a silly trick question.

It's not often I agree with Mint, but he's spot on here.

[tikay]

Thanks for the posts, really interesting discussion.

I've been oscillating since I saw his homework book. Initially I thought they were terribly worded questions and the teacher just read them differently (the were printed off somewhere on the internet), then I kinda changed my mind and maybe it was a lesson in reading the question properly.

Points to note, these are 9 and 10 year olds answering these questions and it was maths homework, not a comprehension test and Jake says his teacher didn't warn the class to read the questions carefully..

Meh, I really don't know.

Meanwhile, before Jake takes his homework book back to school, here is another of the questions (it was a set of 12)

I bought a card costing £1.76 and a chocolate bar costing 63p. There was a 10% sale that day. How much did I spend?

Suggested improvement:

"The shop I go to sells at a mark up of 30%.  I bought a card costing £1.76 and a chocolate bar costing 63p. There was a 10% sale that day. How much did I spend?"

In seriousness, I think these questions are poor.  Kids shouldn't be constantly thinking the examiner is trying to trick them or double bluff them.  Learn the maths and be able to do it quickly without fear of being whooshed.

And if you are going to do it, certainly don't just put a cross without explanation if the kid falls for the semantic trick.  Dreadful way of teaching in my opinion.  Kids will have their confidence eroded for absolutely no reason.

There can't be a shred of doubt that to mark it incorrect without explanation is an extremely poor show by the teacher. And it definitely inhibits people & damages their confidence if no reasoning is given.

You only have to look at the blonde PHA board, which we can reasonably assume is mainly populated by grown-ups, to see that. Someone poses a question, looking for feedback, reassurance, & to learn, then some unthinking oaf simply answers "fold", "call" or whatever with no explanation. And nobody learns a damn thing.

 

[doubleup]

If you google the questions, it comes up as with results that are problems for year 6 children - so the ambiguity might be deliberate, but it is aimed at children older than Jake.

[Doobs]

If you google the questions, it comes up as with results that are problems for year 6 children - so the ambiguity might be deliberate, but it is aimed at children older than Jake.

Jake could be on accelerated maths, so will get the questions earlier?  I don't know if my daughter's school is a standard state school, but the questions she gets are tailored to her ability.   Her education experience seems very different to mine, and I mean in a good way.

[Jon MW]

If you google the questions, it comes up as with results that are problems for year 6 children - so the ambiguity might be deliberate, but it is aimed at children older than Jake.

I had a look on the NICE website and it is as David3103's wife suggested to help evaluate understanding combining literacy and mathematics - the question's 'could' be clearer but aren't technically incorrect - the problem is how this teacher seems to be using them rather than the questions themselves.

[david3103]

In my mind it would be surprising if Jake isn't of above average numeracy, not only via his genes but also because it feels likely that Keith will have imparted an interest in the subject. May be wrong, but both I and my wife have maths backgrounds as do both daughters, and those of the grandchildren that have reached an age to show such tendencies.

Have a look at...
http://www.leics.gov.uk/usewordprobsexamp.doc

This links to a sheet of Multi Step Work Problems, including the ones we've debated. The major issue over Jake's experience here is that it seems the teacher hasn't done the groundwork on the solving process. Nor have they given decent feedback on the answers given. Unless Jake is like lots of 9yr old boys and tends not to discuss the actualities of school days...


Edit

If you google the questions, it comes up as with results that are problems for year 6 children - so the ambiguity might be deliberate, but it is aimed at children older than Jake.

I had a look on the NICE website and it is as David3103's wife suggested to help evaluate understanding combining literacy and mathematics - the question's 'could' be clearer but aren't technically incorrect - the problem is how this teacher seems to be using them rather than the questions themselves.

Agreed, with the caveat that we might not be getting the full story from Jake

[RED-DOG]

No listening, ya hear?

[cambridgealex]

Presumably lots of kids would have made the same mistake so rather than writing down on every paper where they went wrong, the teacher intends to go through it in the classroom altogether? 

[AdamM]

Primary school teachers do my nut in sometimes. I was playing in a friendly home game with a retired teacher/deputy head of 30+ years and we were discussing one of those irritating Facebook click bait posts that was going round. Something like "2+3x0+4=? 95% get it wrong, will you?"
He said it was 4.
Even when we explained it was an Order of Operations 'trick' question and why the answer was 6, he wouldn't accept it. He'd taught children that way his entire career, how could he be wrong

[Jon MW]

Presumably lots of kids would have made the same mistake so rather than writing down on every paper where they went wrong, the teacher intends to go through it in the classroom altogether? 

It was part of maths homework - the big red crosses suggest they were purely looking for the arithmetic; if it's meant to test maths and lots of pupils got it wrong because of the language used rather than because of their arithmetic then it's "wrong".

Even if it was addressed to the whole class afterwards then each pupil has the morale damaging big red crosses in their books without any credit for actually doing good maths (just for the wrong question). If a lot of pupils made the same mistake, then adding feedback in the books as well as to the whole class wouldn't really take that long to add - I think if there was some form of feedback that Jake/Keith just hasn't reported on then it's only mitigation rather than making it a reasonable teaching example.

[MintTrav]

On reflection, perhaps it's not arithmetic or comprehension, but training at reading questions carefully. Those kids know that the teacher is out to trip them up on technicalities, so they will examine her questions forensically from now on. Then, they will probably retain that habit through til they take important exams, where many people answer slightly different questions than the ones they were asked, and beyond that into real life. Learning to read questions very carefully will benefit them hugely more than a few maths Q&As. If that is what is going on, a red X is sufficient to teach them the lesson - I'm sure they know why their answers have been judged incorrect.

Giving a lot of credit here, but it's the only explanation that makes sense to me. A 'test of comprehension' doesn't seem to cut it.

(Sorry Dung)

[DungBeetle]

On reflection, perhaps it's not arithmetic or comprehension, but training at reading questions carefully. Those kids know that the teacher is out to trip them up on technicalities, so they will examine her questions forensically from now on. Then, they will probably retain that habit through til they take important exams, where many people answer slightly different questions than the ones they were asked, and beyond that into real life. Learning to read questions very carefully will benefit them hugely more than a few maths Q&As. If that is what is going on, a red X is sufficient to teach them the lesson - I'm sure they know why their answers have been judged incorrect.

Giving a lot of credit here, but it's the only explanation that makes sense to me. A 'test of comprehension' doesn't seem to cut it.

(Sorry Dung)

Ha!  You've only pulled the hand break and performed a half donut because I agreed with you

As an aside this comprehension stuff when it comes to maths is rubbish.  Even after university when I hire kids I don't want them thinking for themselves.  I want them completing basic tasks at high speed and not second guessing themselves, whilst looking at me as some kind of corporate demi god so within 18 months I will have moulded them into tiny images of myself.  What more could a young prospect want?