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Author Topic: Answer Jake's homework for him please.  (Read 17720 times)
MintTrav
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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2015, 11:07:45 PM »

Waiting nervously for David's wife to respond and give me a tick or an X.


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david3103
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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2015, 11:37:09 PM »

If you google the questions, it comes up as with results that are problems for year 6 children - so the ambiguity might be deliberate, but it is aimed at children older than Jake.

I had a look on the NICE website and it is as David3103's wife suggested to help evaluate understanding combining literacy and mathematics - the question's 'could' be clearer but aren't technically incorrect - the problem is how this teacher seems to be using them rather than the questions themselves.



Presumably lots of kids would have made the same mistake so rather than writing down on every paper where they went wrong, the teacher intends to go through it in the classroom altogether? 

It was part of maths homework - the big red crosses suggest they were purely looking for the arithmetic; if it's meant to test maths and lots of pupils got it wrong because of the language used rather than because of their arithmetic then it's "wrong".

Even if it was addressed to the whole class afterwards then each pupil has the morale damaging big red crosses in their books without any credit for actually doing good maths (just for the wrong question). If a lot of pupils made the same mistake, then adding feedback in the books as well as to the whole class wouldn't really take that long to add - I think if there was some form of feedback that Jake/Keith just hasn't reported on then it's only mitigation rather than making it a reasonable teaching example.

You need to decide whether or not you've changed your mind here. It's become harder to understand what you think about this than to understand the original question.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2015, 04:50:33 AM »

If you google the questions, it comes up as with results that are problems for year 6 children - so the ambiguity might be deliberate, but it is aimed at children older than Jake.

I had a look on the NICE website and it is as David3103's wife suggested to help evaluate understanding combining literacy and mathematics - the question's 'could' be clearer but aren't technically incorrect - the problem is how this teacher seems to be using them rather than the questions themselves.



Presumably lots of kids would have made the same mistake so rather than writing down on every paper where they went wrong, the teacher intends to go through it in the classroom altogether? 

It was part of maths homework - the big red crosses suggest they were purely looking for the arithmetic; if it's meant to test maths and lots of pupils got it wrong because of the language used rather than because of their arithmetic then it's "wrong".

Even if it was addressed to the whole class afterwards then each pupil has the morale damaging big red crosses in their books without any credit for actually doing good maths (just for the wrong question). If a lot of pupils made the same mistake, then adding feedback in the books as well as to the whole class wouldn't really take that long to add - I think if there was some form of feedback that Jake/Keith just hasn't reported on then it's only mitigation rather than making it a reasonable teaching example.

You need to decide whether or not you've changed your mind here. It's become harder to understand what you think about this than to understand the original question.

It was set as maths homework - they are bad maths questions.

If it was set to develop a deeper understanding of the pupils ability and assessed properly with proper feedback then they would be ok
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david3103
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« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2015, 07:45:04 AM »

If you google the questions, it comes up as with results that are problems for year 6 children - so the ambiguity might be deliberate, but it is aimed at children older than Jake.

I had a look on the NICE website and it is as David3103's wife suggested to help evaluate understanding combining literacy and mathematics - the question's 'could' be clearer but aren't technically incorrect - the problem is how this teacher seems to be using them rather than the questions themselves.



Presumably lots of kids would have made the same mistake so rather than writing down on every paper where they went wrong, the teacher intends to go through it in the classroom altogether? 

It was part of maths homework - the big red crosses suggest they were purely looking for the arithmetic; if it's meant to test maths and lots of pupils got it wrong because of the language used rather than because of their arithmetic then it's "wrong".

Even if it was addressed to the whole class afterwards then each pupil has the morale damaging big red crosses in their books without any credit for actually doing good maths (just for the wrong question). If a lot of pupils made the same mistake, then adding feedback in the books as well as to the whole class wouldn't really take that long to add - I think if there was some form of feedback that Jake/Keith just hasn't reported on then it's only mitigation rather than making it a reasonable teaching example.

You need to decide whether or not you've changed your mind here. It's become harder to understand what you think about this than to understand the original question.

It was set as maths homework - they are bad maths questions.

If it was set to develop a deeper understanding of the pupils ability and assessed properly with proper feedback then they would be ok


Can you reconcile the bolded statements for me please, and maybe offer an explanation for how primary school teachers can develop an understanding of their pupils positions within Bloom's?

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DungBeetle
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« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2015, 08:27:03 AM »

I agree with the bolded part.  Basic maths is a fundamental tool in many careers, and this was specifically maths homework.  The skill to be learned is to compute figures quickly.  It's not helpful for learning that skill for the kid to be focusing on whether the examiner is tricking him with clever semantics.  It results in less time crunching numbers and erodes confidence.
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« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2015, 08:40:53 AM »

Maths is not about computing numbers quickly at all although obviously in many branches of maths it is an important skill.

If I had set either of those questions I would have accepted both answers. If I was doing an intentional trip people up question (and they DO have their place in the right situation) then for Q1 I would expect the answers given here as each wasnt specified. For question 2 I'd expect to see "wtf can't answer that sort your question setting out" although at a push I'd have to assume the 10% was already included in the prices given. That one really is bad.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2015, 08:42:34 AM »

I thought it was clear - if it is used to look at literacy and maths it could be useful but it wasn't. If you are purely testing an arithmetic skill then the pupil shouldn't be punished for a problem with language.

In addition if it is purely testing arithmetic skills then the pupil should gain some credit for doing the correct arithmetic on the 'wrong' question. In the absence of further evidence it looks a lot like a teacher just going through the motions.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2015, 08:50:08 AM »

Maths is not about computing numbers quickly at all although obviously in many branches of maths it is an important skill.

If I had set either of those questions I would have accepted both answers. If I was doing an intentional trip people up question (and they DO have their place in the right situation) then for Q1 I would expect the answers given here as each wasnt specified. For question 2 I'd expect to see "wtf can't answer that sort your question setting out" although at a push I'd have to assume the 10% was already included in the prices given. That one really is bad.

No.  But computing numbers efficiently and confidently is the core building block and generates confidence to advance to other topics.  This line of questioning undermines that.
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david3103
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« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2015, 08:59:30 AM »

I thought it was clear - if it is used to look at literacy and maths it could be useful but it wasn't. If you are purely testing an arithmetic skill then the pupil shouldn't be punished for a problem with language.

In addition if it is purely testing arithmetic skills then the pupil should gain some credit for doing the correct arithmetic on the 'wrong' question. In the absence of further evidence it looks a lot like a teacher just going through the motions.

Have you even read any of the posts showing that this is, very specifically, a question aimed at assessing the pupils' ability to answer multi step word problems?
Here's another, this from the TES website

https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/multi-step-word-problems-6072795

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david3103
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« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2015, 09:00:00 AM »

I'd love to hear from Keith or Jake on the topic of pre and follow up work on these questions, or question types. There really should be some and whilst many here are assuming there wasn't I'm more inclined to think there was, but Jake hasn't shared it yet.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2015, 09:05:51 AM »

I thought it was clear - if it is used to look at literacy and maths it could be useful but it wasn't. If you are purely testing an arithmetic skill then the pupil shouldn't be punished for a problem with language.

In addition if it is purely testing arithmetic skills then the pupil should gain some credit for doing the correct arithmetic on the 'wrong' question. In the absence of further evidence it looks a lot like a teacher just going through the motions.

Have you even read any of the posts showing that this is, very specifically, a question aimed at assessing the pupils' ability to answer multi step word problems?
Here's another, this from the TES website

https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/multi-step-word-problems-6072795



These questions look much fairer.  It's clear what they are after and what they are testing from reading the first few.
 In my opinion it's different from leaving out the word 'each' or trying to trick a pupil over whether a price is pre or post sale discount.
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« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2015, 09:15:40 AM »

Maths is not about computing numbers quickly at all although obviously in many branches of maths it is an important skill.

If I had set either of those questions I would have accepted both answers. If I was doing an intentional trip people up question (and they DO have their place in the right situation) then for Q1 I would expect the answers given here as each wasnt specified. For question 2 I'd expect to see "wtf can't answer that sort your question setting out" although at a push I'd have to assume the 10% was already included in the prices given. That one really is bad.

No.  But computing numbers efficiently and confidently is the core building block and generates confidence to advance to other topics.  This line of questioning undermines that.

As I say it depends on the context. Aimed at a primary school class where you're going for the multi step concept then it's inappropriate. In this case I imagine it was just lazy question setting which does happen. Teachers are very busy after all. Can easily be rectified by an in class discussion and changing the marks of anyone who got it "wrong".

Questions like this however are good to give to a slightly older higher ability class. Another important skill of maths is to understand a problem and then use the relevant skills to solve it. And whilst I think these particular questions are verging towards unfair as even having spotted the trick you're second guessing what is required the actual concept is sound.
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2015, 09:23:49 AM »

Maths is not about computing numbers quickly at all although obviously in many branches of maths it is an important skill.

If I had set either of those questions I would have accepted both answers. If I was doing an intentional trip people up question (and they DO have their place in the right situation) then for Q1 I would expect the answers given here as each wasnt specified. For question 2 I'd expect to see "wtf can't answer that sort your question setting out" although at a push I'd have to assume the 10% was already included in the prices given. That one really is bad.

No.  But computing numbers efficiently and confidently is the core building block and generates confidence to advance to other topics.  This line of questioning undermines that.

As I say it depends on the context. Aimed at a primary school class where you're going for the multi step concept then it's inappropriate. In this case I imagine it was just lazy question setting which does happen. Teachers are very busy after all. Can easily be rectified by an in class discussion and changing the marks of anyone who got it "wrong".

Questions like this however are good to give to a slightly older higher ability class. Another important skill of maths is to understand a problem and then use the relevant skills to solve it. And whilst I think these particular questions are verging towards unfair as even having spotted the trick you're second guessing what is required the actual concept is sound.

That's the crux though isn't it.  These questions lead to second guessing and confusion.  The questions in David's link are fairer and clear in what they require.  The questions in this thread are simply poor.

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Jon MW
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« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2015, 09:50:16 AM »

I thought it was clear - if it is used to look at literacy and maths it could be useful but it wasn't. If you are purely testing an arithmetic skill then the pupil shouldn't be punished for a problem with language.

In addition if it is purely testing arithmetic skills then the pupil should gain some credit for doing the correct arithmetic on the 'wrong' question. In the absence of further evidence it looks a lot like a teacher just going through the motions.

Have you even read any of the posts showing that this is, very specifically, a question aimed at assessing the pupils' ability to answer multi step word problems?
Here's another, this from the TES website

https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/multi-step-word-problems-6072795



A lot of the questions are clearer but it highlights the problem - it's a resource for teachers to download and use without any context of 'how' to use it. The result will then depend on the teacher themselves rather than the resource. The fact that they're downloading a pre-prepared worksheet rather than creating their own might say something (and obviously once created your own resources can be used in future years - so it's not like it creates that much more work over the long term).

I'm aware that my knowledge is pretty much "text-book" and academic (with a fair amount of anecdotal) rather than from any great deal of experience but resources like this do remind me a lot of the academic part of teacher training at Kings College (London) - most of the taught part in particular -  was addressing how to assess what misconceptions pupils have with, obviously, a specific look at the most common. Most of the explanations were explained by - because of how this is taught in some primary schools.

There are lots of good primary schools and lots of good primary school teachers - but their are also a lot of mediocre ones. Particularly when you get maths being taught by someone who might not have done maths since A Level (or even O Level). Not saying this is necessarily the case for Jake's teacher - but probability wise I'd have thought with the evidence available it's a lot more likely that they don't really do much with the homework rather than it's part of a cleverly structured sequence of lesson plans.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 09:52:13 AM by Jon MW » Logged

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david3103
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« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2015, 02:22:13 PM »

For clarity, the link I gave earlier includes the questions in the OP if you view the second slide.


https://www.tes.com/teaching-resource/multi-step-word-problems-6072795

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