Yes or No, the Euro 2016 squad

[DungBeetle]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

well I think he can pick a pass and has vision that not many centre backs have. Defensively though I agree, not ready yet. Stones or Cahill next to smalling? I have to go Cahill but it's a definite weak link in the squad

Shawcross missing for Stoke moves the Asian market more than any of these guys and it isn't even close.  These guys are playing in systems where they are protected and delude themselves into thinking they are great players be cause they play for a team with a badge. As discussed in another thread this is changing.  The masses don't realise it yet.  The shrewdies do.

You can't get more results orientated than Ryan's treatment, one of the greatest players in the modern era destroyed him in one half with wonder goals and he hasn't played for England since.  I would love football gambling pros to run the England run who can see outside of results short term then we might actually have a chance of winning something,  how can a top class centre half be put in a coffin internationally for his whole life because of that? It is truely redic.

I will flip the discussion from earlier name me a more under paid player in the last 8 years in the epl consistently over those years than Ryan? £50k a week at his peak more than half of that period less than half of that.

I have no idea why Shawcross isn't in the squad.  Until this post I didn't even know he had a cap - think I was abroad that year - what happened?

[nirvana]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

well I think he can pick a pass and has vision that not many centre backs have. Defensively though I agree, not ready yet. Stones or Cahill next to smalling? I have to go Cahill but it's a definite weak link in the squad

Yep, I don't think we disagree I just find players like this interesting - his main job is to be a defender and he's pretty poor - just inexcusable schoolboy errors and yet playing at the highest levels as a defender. If his vision and passing was really out of the top drawer he'd be in midfield as his defensive work is just average, but he isn't. Almost like, put him in to satisfy the mild clamour, so he can show why he shouldn't be in

[nirvana]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

This, Everton missed a monster trick not selling him for £50m.  Shawcross is way better than this kid right now,  that is all that matters in international football.  This kid is a talent like theo was. Nothing more than that right now.

Yep, take your ticket on Shawcross but somehow he just doesn't fit the profile and doubt he'd ever get an extended run to prove his worth.

[hhyftrftdr]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

This, Everton missed a monster trick not selling him for £50m.  Shawcross is way better than this kid right now,  that is all that matters in international football.  This kid is a talent like theo was. Nothing more than that right now.

Very likely going to Man City in the summer. Should be a great bit of business for Everton.

I agree on Shawcross. We can't win the tournament with Stones/Jag/Cahill alongside Smalling in the same way we can't win it with Rooney, Sterling and Sturridge

Be very surprised if he ends up at Eastlands when we have Denayer returning to us next season. Esp as Everton will quote a ridiculous £50m or so for what is a very raw centre half with plenty of room for improvement.

[rinswun]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

well I think he can pick a pass and has vision that not many centre backs have. Defensively though I agree, not ready yet. Stones or Cahill next to smalling? I have to go Cahill but it's a definite weak link in the squad

Shawcross missing for Stoke moves the Asian market more than any of these guys and it isn't even close.  These guys are playing in systems where they are protected and delude themselves into thinking they are great players be cause they play for a team with a badge. As discussed in another thread this is changing.  The masses don't realise it yet.  The shrewdies do.

You can't get more results orientated than Ryan's treatment, one of the greatest players in the modern era destroyed him in one half with wonder goals and he hasn't played for England since.  I would love football gambling pros to run the England run who can see outside of results short term then we might actually have a chance of winning something,  how can a top class centre half be put in a coffin internationally for his whole life because of that? It is truely redic.

I will flip the discussion from earlier name me a more under paid player in the last 8 years in the epl consistently over those years than Ryan? £50k a week at his peak more than half of that period less than half of that.

I have no idea why Shawcross isn't in the squad.  Until this post I didn't even know he had a cap - think I was abroad that year - what happened?

Pretty sure Shawcross played in the game when Zlatan scored the 40 yard overhead kick.

[arbboy]

It is these reasons why the epl markets are usually wrong and not right on so many games,  betfair isn't always right, believe me.  Just like woy hasn't got a clue about centre halfs.

[arbboy]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

well I think he can pick a pass and has vision that not many centre backs have. Defensively though I agree, not ready yet. Stones or Cahill next to smalling? I have to go Cahill but it's a definite weak link in the squad

Shawcross missing for Stoke moves the Asian market more than any of these guys and it isn't even close.  These guys are playing in systems where they are protected and delude themselves into thinking they are great players be cause they play for a team with a badge. As discussed in another thread this is changing.  The masses don't realise it yet.  The shrewdies do.

You can't get more results orientated than Ryan's treatment, one of the greatest players in the modern era destroyed him in one half with wonder goals and he hasn't played for England since.  I would love football gambling pros to run the England run who can see outside of results short term then we might actually have a chance of winning something,  how can a top class centre half be put in a coffin internationally for his whole life because of that? It is truely redic.

I will flip the discussion from earlier name me a more under paid player in the last 8 years in the epl consistently over those years than Ryan? £50k a week at his peak more than half of that period less than half of that.

I have no idea why Shawcross isn't in the squad.  Until this post I didn't even know he had a cap - think I was abroad that year - what happened?

Pretty sure Shawcross played in the game when Zlatan scored the 40 yard overhead kick.

Yes it is a standing joke in the Stoke dressing room that he wasn't good enough to stop that wonder goal. Hence finishing his international career even though him missing for Stoke in the epl moves Asian markets more than virtually any centre half

[Tal]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

This, Everton missed a monster trick not selling him for £50m.  Shawcross is way better than this kid right now,  that is all that matters in international football.  This kid is a talent like theo was. Nothing more than that right now.

Very likely going to Man City in the summer. Should be a great bit of business for Everton.

I agree on Shawcross. We can't win the tournament with Stones/Jag/Cahill alongside Smalling in the same way we can't win it with Rooney, Sterling and Sturridge

Be very surprised if he ends up at Eastlands when we have Denayer returning to us next season. Esp as Everton will quote a ridiculous £50m or so for what is a very raw centre half with plenty of room for improvement.

Might be different with the new ownership at Goodison but I strongly suspect he might go.

[hhyftrftdr]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

This, Everton missed a monster trick not selling him for £50m.  Shawcross is way better than this kid right now,  that is all that matters in international football.  This kid is a talent like theo was. Nothing more than that right now.

Very likely going to Man City in the summer. Should be a great bit of business for Everton.

I agree on Shawcross. We can't win the tournament with Stones/Jag/Cahill alongside Smalling in the same way we can't win it with Rooney, Sterling and Sturridge

Be very surprised if he ends up at Eastlands when we have Denayer returning to us next season. Esp as Everton will quote a ridiculous £50m or so for what is a very raw centre half with plenty of room for improvement.

Might be different with the new ownership at Goodison but I strongly suspect he might go.

Chelsea are welcome to him 

[arbboy]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

This, Everton missed a monster trick not selling him for £50m.  Shawcross is way better than this kid right now,  that is all that matters in international football.  This kid is a talent like theo was. Nothing more than that right now.

Very likely going to Man City in the summer. Should be a great bit of business for Everton.

I agree on Shawcross. We can't win the tournament with Stones/Jag/Cahill alongside Smalling in the same way we can't win it with Rooney, Sterling and Sturridge

Be very surprised if he ends up at Eastlands when we have Denayer returning to us next season. Esp as Everton will quote a ridiculous £50m or so for what is a very raw centre half with plenty of room for improvement.

Might be different with the new ownership at Goodison but I strongly suspect he might go.

He should be paid to leave for £50m by Everton, their defence this season has been truly awful. Without the big boy up front they would be in a relegation battle,  why can't people see the wood for the trees? Do we always have to be so results orientated?

[arbboy]

Stones needs a year under a top manager in a proper defensive system, neither of which he currently has. A great talent but not ready to start in a major champs yet

Not being contrary for the hell of it but why do you  say he's a great talent ? I ask because a  lot of people say it but I really don't get it.

Not many centre halves just punt it these days so he doesn't really stand out as a ball player in any kind of special way and, to me, he's a complete flake in terms of any kind of defensive work.

This, Everton missed a monster trick not selling him for £50m.  Shawcross is way better than this kid right now,  that is all that matters in international football.  This kid is a talent like theo was. Nothing more than that right now.

Very likely going to Man City in the summer. Should be a great bit of business for Everton.

I agree on Shawcross. We can't win the tournament with Stones/Jag/Cahill alongside Smalling in the same way we can't win it with Rooney, Sterling and Sturridge

Be very surprised if he ends up at Eastlands when we have Denayer returning to us next season. Esp as Everton will quote a ridiculous £50m or so for what is a very raw centre half with plenty of room for improvement.

Might be different with the new ownership at Goodison but I strongly suspect he might go.

He should be paid to leave for £50m by Everton, their defence this season has been truly awful. Without the big boy up front they would be in a relegation battle,  why can't people see the wood for the trees? Do we always have to be so results orientated?

Without being boring this is why the epl market isn't always right, just another example,

[arbboy]

Ps how does sir tony b make a living if the ell market is always right? He doesn't put his money down until late Saturday? Maybe all the people who say it isn't possible just follow the machine and can't price up a coin flip. Just making blooms positions even stronger as he takes advantage of arbers holding up prices he wants to back but can't get on at the lol firms but the Arbers hold them up on the exchanges for him.

On top of this they forget the Asian sheep follow bloom in blind so balls deep that it creates value on the other side at 255pm on a Saturday,  they think he has a crystal ball. He has but at what price! Lolzzzzzzz

Sure he bets the other side of most stuff on the off because it moves that much of his view and he is effectively an arber turning over fortunes risk free,

[dino1980]

Yes it is a standing joke in the Stoke dressing room that he wasn't good enough to stop that wonder goal. Hence finishing his international career even though him missing for Stoke in the epl moves Asian markets more than virtually any centre half

Shawcross moving Asian markets more than any other centre half doesn't make him better than centre halfs who don't. It just means his 'value over replacement player' is higher than others because the drop off in talent between 2nd and 3rd best centre-half at Stoke is greater than at other clubs.

He should definitely have more than one cap though.

[arbboy]

Yes it is a standing joke in the Stoke dressing room that he wasn't good enough to stop that wonder goal. Hence finishing his international career even though him missing for Stoke in the epl moves Asian markets more than virtually any centre half

Shawcross moving Asian markets more than any other centre half doesn't make him better than centre halfs who don't. It just means his 'value over replacement player' is higher than others because the drop off in talent between 2nd and 3rd best centre-half at Stoke is greater than at other clubs.

He should definitely have more than one cap though.

I would agree with what you are saying for sure on both counts to a certain extent.  i equally don't think the gulf betwen Stoke's and Everton's first and 3rd choice centre halfs is much different tbh (or many other epl sides tbh) which is what actually causes the moves.  He might be old school and unfashionable but he is one of the best centre halfs in the EPL of any nationality.

[dino1980]

Yes it is a standing joke in the Stoke dressing room that he wasn't good enough to stop that wonder goal. Hence finishing his international career even though him missing for Stoke in the epl moves Asian markets more than virtually any centre half

Shawcross moving Asian markets more than any other centre half doesn't make him better than centre halfs who don't. It just means his 'value over replacement player' is higher than others because the drop off in talent between 2nd and 3rd best centre-half at Stoke is greater than at other clubs.

He should definitely have more than one cap though.

I would agree with what you are saying for sure on both counts to a certain extent.  i equally don't think the gulf betwen Stoke's and Everton's first and 3rd choice centre halfs is much different tbh (or many other epl sides tbh) which is what actually causes the moves.  He might be old school and unfashionable but he is one of the best centre halfs in the EPL of any nationality.

There's some parallels between Stoke and Everton. The toffees seem to look better when it's Jags +1. Also Funes Mori has, numbers wise, had a good season. Looking at some opta stats he ranks first/second out of the three Everton centre halves for 
% Aerial duels won, interceptions, recoveries, clearances and blocks. Obviously they've not all played the same number of minutes but without getting a calculator out at this hour I think that's true for per 90 minutes too.

Agree re: Shawcross but, getting this back on topic, for me he wouldn't be in my squad because I'd only take seven defenders (excluding goalkeepers historically most of the players who play zero minutes at major comps  are defenders for a variety of reasons). His lack of versatility counts against him as does the fact Dier can play centre-half/right back.