Hmmmmm very interesting spot here

[lolwutwasthat]

1/2 live NL £500 effective or so.

We raise £10 Utg with   , tight passive player calls in HJ.

  Cbet 15 he calls

  Check Check

   We bet £50, he now snap raises to 175. We???

[pleno1]

bet turn and lots of rivers

[Rexas]

Gotta agree with pleno, although once we've checked turn I wouldn't bother with betting the river, remember this is live cash and you've kept the pot small and you're telling an unconvincing story so you've given the other guy a bunch of excuses to make a call. Definitely fold now, trying to make people fold flushes is a bad plan, even more so given that you described him as tight passive. When that sort of player comes in raising you should be doing a lot of folding.

[lolwutwasthat]

Sorry didnt state not jamming here, I assumed that was going to be pretty obvious, was just thinking whether to call or fold this river.

[shipitgood]

He is very passive and now cOmes out all guns blazing, fold Very quickly!

[TheRagingBull]

Passive to aggressive having taken a free card on the turn. Answered your own question.

[titaniumbean]

Sorry didnt state not jamming here, I assumed that was going to be pretty obvious, was just thinking whether to call or fold this river.

you've written the hand wrong.

jamming would work better than call....

[Doobs]

Sorry didnt state not jamming here, I assumed that was going to be pretty obvious, was just thinking whether to call or fold this river.

you've written the hand wrong.

jamming would work better than call....

 

Exactly what I thought.  I'd never call, but would think about jamming for a few seconds before folding sheepishly.

[lolwutwasthat]

So what hands do you think this guy has for value? And being passive doesnt mean they don't bluff, it generally just means they bluff less, which makes this spot kind of close, but im not sure if its close.

[Rexas]

Passive usually does mean they do a lot of calling and not much betting, maybe we've got a different way of classing it, but someone I would consider passive post flop would be very unlikely to put more than £50 in the middle as a bluff ever.

Moreover, we can't actually beat anything. We can't even beat some of the hands he could bluff with, which is a total disaster for us. Would much prefer jamming to calling for that reason, but as I said as played I wouldn't bet the river in the first place and if I did I would be folding very quickly.

A passive villain can still have a bunch of flushes, he could have made a straight with 89, might even have worse than that and have decided you can't have a flush so he can go for value.

Also if you flat out know someone doesn't bluff very much you should not be calling them with bluff catchers unless you have an absolutely amazing reason to do so, because you won't be getting the odds on making the call. If you never get bluffed it's definitely a bad thing, because it will mean you're basically just a station.

[lolwutwasthat]

I'm sure you'd call a player like phil laak passive too. It's not like he wont ever bluff.

We have nut blocker so this cuts down alot of a nits value combos. Nits wont raise a 9high flush on this river vs a psb. So it leaves him with Kxcc/Jxcc which there are only Kjcc/K9cc(maybe if he peels pre) and J9cc/j8cc(maybe again) all combos which may raise flop or bet turn when checked to.

Hands we beat? We almost have the perfect bluff catcher in this spot, we have , dont have to worry about pairs, since people dont snap raise a pair otr as a bluff, they atleast think about calling first. We beat J9hh j9ss j9dd, KJ maybe all combos, AJ all combos. Which is way more than his value range.

[Rexas]

I'm sure you'd call a player like phil laak passive too. It's not like he wont ever bluff.

We have nut blocker so this cuts down alot of a nits value combos. Nits wont raise a 9high flush on this river vs a psb. So it leaves him with Kxcc/Jxcc which there are only Kjcc/K9cc(maybe if he peels pre) and J9cc/j8cc(maybe again) all combos which may raise flop or bet turn when checked to.

Hands we beat? We almost have the perfect bluff catcher in this spot, we have , dont have to worry about pairs, since people dont snap raise a pair otr as a bluff, they atleast think about calling first. We beat J9hh j9ss j9dd, KJ maybe all combos, AJ all combos. Which is way more than his value range.

Honestly, if you're giving him all these combos as bluffs, he isn't passive, and I don't think I'd call Phil Laak particularly passive but don't really follow the pros that much so don't really know. The blocks the most obvious bluff for villain as well as a chunk of the bluffing hands villain can have that you listed, and why can't he raise a 5 on the river? He made a pair on the flop, so called, and when he gets to the river he doesn't think you've got a flush so he goes ahead and raises. You've basically listed all the hands he can have by the river that don't have showdown value, and 5x doesn't have any showdown value really, so why not this?

I would also say that if you think villain is going to bet all of his hands that missed as a bluff here, which it seems you do think, that check call river is way way better than bet call, because you make it cheaper for him to bluff and give him more of an incentive by doing the weak thing and checking two streets to him.

[lolwutwasthat]

Ofcourse i dont give him all the combos. But even 1 combo of bluffs with the given pot odds should probably warrant a call here. His hand doesnt make sense for a value hand. hes a nit, what 5x does he have pre? The 3 combos of A5s?

[titaniumbean]

So what hands do you think this guy has for value? And being passive doesnt mean they don't bluff, it generally just means they bluff less, which makes this spot kind of close, but im not sure if its close.

probably 5 cards of the puppy feet.

[Rexas]

Ofcourse i dont give him all the combos. But even 1 combo of bluffs with the given pot odds should probably warrant a call here. His hand doesnt make sense for a value hand. hes a nit, what 5x does he have pre? The 3 combos of A5s?

What pot odds do you have?