Call or fold?

[ACE2M]

You are in the bb with 10 J suited and a stack 30k.
UTG raises 3 x BB to 1800 and he has a stack of 24k

You call

Flop comes J 7 3 no flush draw

you check
utg bets 2300
you call

turn comes A

you check
utg checks

river 6

you check
utg bets 9000

Call or fold?

[jezza777]

hmmmm,  I think that you have to fold on the river , his position and his turn check make me think he has AA, KK, QQ , I think he bets the turn with ak or aq. HIs 9000 bet is almost half of his stack . I dont think that secind pair ish kicker is enough here.

[TightEnd]

his check on the turn is designed to get you to bet the river. Well done for not doing so

He then bets the pot (roughly) on the end to try to thrown you off the scent.. a value bet would be less...he's try to make it look like he is buying the pot (which of course he could do, you've checked to him  twice indicating you do not have an Ace)

I think this is a standard line with a big overpair to the flop...AA/KK/QQ is my suggestion here

Fold

[matt674]

But he could possibly have AK as well so by check raising on the flop you could get him to pass and not give him the chance to hit his Ace on the turn.

If he comes over the top of you again then you know he's got your top pair beat and you can lay it down on the flop.

One reason why i dont like flat calls with marginal hands out of position when it gets to the middle/end stage of tourneys, you never know where you stand........

[TightEnd]

But he could possibly have AK as well so by check raising on the flop you could get him to pass and not give him the chance to hit his Ace on the turn.

If he comes over the top of you again then you know he's got your top pair beat and you can lay it down on the flop.

One reason why i dont like flat calls with marginal hands out of position when it gets to the middle/end stage of tourneys, you never know where you stand........

nice post.

[NoflopsHomer]

I pass preflop, no need to play the hand.

[AdamM]

i agree. if the button raises and you call with J,10 you might be ahead with top pair. if UTG raises and you call with J,10 your top pair is no good. you meed to be hitting two pair or up and down and flush draws. respect that he's raises UTG and pass pre flop. would have been nice to see a flop but an easy pass

[matt674]

in an age where the "continuation" bet seems to be the standard play nowadays, the check raise on the flop has become an ever more important weapon in the armoury - even more so when you've actually hit a part of the flop. At this stage of a tourney you should know by now whether the player who has raised is a complete rock who has the goods or someone you think could be just making the continuation bet because its his normal play.

Once the flop has come down you have to ask yourself the question what did you put your opponent on preflop? If you put him on a hand that was better than jacks then you pass, you are calling to hit one of 5 outs which could in fact be drawing virtually dead if your opponent has hit a set. If you believe that your top pair is now good then you have to reraise, tell your opponent "i now have you beat and its going to cost you to outdraw me".

As you may gather i'm not really a fan of the flat call at this stage of a tourney, either pre flop or on the flop. However i will flat call very occasionally (even when i've missed my hand) if i think my opponent has also missed completely and i think that he will take another stab at the pot. Then i can check raise him off the pot and pick up a few more chips. However you really have to know your opponent and have a good enough read to know he has no hand. This play is risky in that if a scary card (like the ace) comes he may well then have made his hand - then you have to reevaluate the situation and go from there (hence why i only make this play on a very rare occasion).

[NoflopsHomer]

As you may gather i'm not really a fan of the flat call at this stage of a tourney, either pre flop or on the flop. However i will flat call very occasionally (even when i've missed my hand) if i think my opponent has also missed completely and i think that he will take another stab at the pot. Then i can check raise him off the pot and pick up a few more chips. However you really have to know your opponent and have a good enough read to know he has no hand. This play is risky in that if a scary card (like the ace) comes he may well then have made his hand - then you have to reevaluate the situation and go from there (hence why i only make this play on a very rare occasion).

I agree, when I've got a medium ace in the BB and I know the button to be someone who will try to steal on occasions, I'd rather raise here, because flat-calling doesn't tell me anything about his hand, and if the flop comes A72, and he leads out with a solid bet, I'm just making things more difficult for myself.

[temp0r]

it's a fold on the river.
it's also a rather silly call on the flop. you should be raising another 4k there.

[lazaroonie]

in an age where the "continuation" bet seems to be the standard play nowadays, the check raise on the flop has become an ever more important weapon in the armoury - even more so when you've actually hit a part of the flop. At this stage of a tourney you should know by now whether the player who has raised is a complete rock who has the goods or someone you think could be just making the continuation bet because its his normal play.

Once the flop has come down you have to ask yourself the question what did you put your opponent on preflop? If you put him on a hand that was better than jacks then you pass, you are calling to hit one of 5 outs which could in fact be drawing virtually dead if your opponent has hit a set. If you believe that your top pair is now good then you have to reraise, tell your opponent "i now have you beat and its going to cost you to outdraw me".

As you may gather i'm not really a fan of the flat call at this stage of a tourney, either pre flop or on the flop. However i will flat call very occasionally (even when i've missed my hand) if i think my opponent has also missed completely and i think that he will take another stab at the pot. Then i can check raise him off the pot and pick up a few more chips. However you really have to know your opponent and have a good enough read to know he has no hand. This play is risky in that if a scary card (like the ace) comes he may well then have made his hand - then you have to reevaluate the situation and go from there (hence why i only make this play on a very rare occasion).

  got to be worth 8 bananas on the bananometer.

[ACE2M]

Fold is the general opinion then.

I was the one utg and had raised with 10,10 having not played many hands for some time i felt i needed a pot, with my rock image a decent pre flop raise i was very surprised he called my bet on the end. Kiril gersaimov, rob hollink and the scandieboy that called all said they would have called my bet on the end. A bet on the turn no, but the check stinks apparently. I didn't rush the bet or give any tells and wanted the bet to look like what tightend said the bet looked like, i was certain he had a Jack and would almost certainly fold for 40% of his remaining chips.

[snoopy1239]

You are in the bb with 10 J suited and a stack 30k.
UTG raises 3 x BB to 1800 and he has a stack of 24k

You call

Flop comes J 7 3 no flush draw

you check
utg bets 2300
you call

turn comes A

you check
utg checks

river 6

you check
utg bets 9000

Call or fold?

I'd fold

Unless you can read him for a bluff, I think there are too many hands that beat you. The ace might have slowed down Q-Q or K-K, plus he may be trapping with A-K, A-Q, or A-J. Don't forget that it's an utg raise, so there are few hands that the average player will hold that have missed the baord. K-Q, T-T, perhaps. Not enough for me.

Personally, I would have been tempted to let it go preflop. It look pretty, but you're probably up against a strong hand and with bad position, you can end up chasing and dribbling your chips away without really knowing where you stand.

I think if you are going to play, you need to raise the flop and find out if he has that A-J, Q-Q, K-K, A-A

[snoopy1239]

Was this Monte Carlo?

[NoflopsHomer]

Fold is the general opinion then.

I was the one utg and had raised with 10,10 having not played many hands for some time i felt i needed a pot, with my rock image a decent pre flop raise i was very surprised he called my bet on the end. Kiril gersaimov, rob hollink and the scandieboy that called all said they would have called my bet on the end. A bet on the turn no, but the check stinks apparently. I didn't rush the bet or give any tells and wanted the bet to look like what tightend said the bet looked like, i was certain he had a Jack and would almost certainly fold for 40% of his remaining chips.

Then when I play against these guys I'm using the bet,check,bet method.