I wanted to pass this but ... well take a look.

[Newmanseye]

Multi-Table Tournament
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
MTT Table 7 8255845-36 Holdem No Limit 100/200
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Hand Start.
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 1 : bobodix has $2,630
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 2 : mr b bunter has $1,540
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 3 : indmix has $6,050
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 4 : CrazyMark has $1,760
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 5 : nidgeblack has $3,070
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 6 : newmanseye1 has $9,560
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 7 : betty1060 has $3,500
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 8 : tbish has $7,090
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 9 : wolfee has $10,910
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : wolfee is the dealer.
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : bobodix posted small blind.
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : mr b bunter posted big blind.
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Game [36] started with 9 players.
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Apr 2 19:09:45] : Seat 6 : newmanseye1 has
[Apr 2 19:09:56] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 9 min. Break in: 16 min. Players : 191
[Apr 2 19:10:00] : indmix has 10 seconds to respond.
[Apr 2 19:10:00] : indmix called 200 and raised 1,600
[Apr 2 19:10:01] : CrazyMark folded.
[Apr 2 19:10:01] : nidgeblack folded.
[Apr 2 19:10:05] : newmanseye1 called 1,800 and raised 7,760 and is All-in
[Apr 2 19:10:06] : betty1060 folded.
[Apr 2 19:10:09] : tbish folded.
[Apr 2 19:10:09] : wolfee folded.
[Apr 2 19:10:11] : bobodix folded.
[Apr 2 19:10:14] : mr b bunter folded.
[Apr 2 19:10:15] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 8 min. Break in: 16 min. Players : 190
[Apr 2 19:10:19] : indmix called 4,250 and is All-in
[Apr 2 19:10:20] : Showdown!
[Apr 2 19:10:20] : Seat 6 : newmanseye1 has
[Apr 2 19:10:22] : Seat 3 : indmix has
[Apr 2 19:10:22] : Seat 6 : newmanseye1 has
[Apr 2 19:10:27] : newmanseye1 : gl
[Apr 2 19:10:31] : Board cards [ ]
[Apr 2 19:10:31] : Seat 6 : newmanseye1 has
[Apr 2 19:10:31] : newmanseye1 has Pair:
[Apr 2 19:10:31] : Seat 3 : indmix has
[Apr 2 19:10:31] : indmix has Flush JT932
[Apr 2 19:10:31] : indmix wins 12,400 with Flush JT932
[Apr 2 19:10:35] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 8 min. Break in: 16 min. Players : 190
[Apr 2 19:10:36] : newmanseye1 : nh
[Apr 2 19:10:41] : Hand is over.
[Apr 2 19:10:41] : 
[Apr 2 19:10:41] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 8 min. Break in: 16 min. Players : 190


Now given the chips I had and In relation to the average stack i was 4 times the average, who would have laid it down?

[Nem]

You could have flat called and played a flop.

Just cos you have AK doesn't mean that every time you do get it you go all in and play 50/50 poker.

[Newmanseye]

True, again I thought " bully the bugger" and pushed.  Perhaps therein lies the problem.

[totalise]

Ak isn't always assured of being in a 50/50 coup tho.... these big bets are rarely AA/KK, but frequntly AK/AQ/AJ or underpairs.

I dont especially mind taking AK vs the range of AK---AJ/medium pairs... the equity is pretty good.

EDIT: naturally people can and do play AA/KK this way, but its not that often, so the frequency which you see AA/KK are no-where near as high as small/medium pairs (the fact that you have an ace and a king also disuade the liklihood)

You could just call and see a flop, but you are paying a high price to do so (a raise of 8bb's) and are going to be disappointed the 66% of the time it leaves you unimproved (of which I assume you will not be proceeding past the flop)

reads help, but absent a read, jamming/folding are probably pretty close to correct, with calling being the worst choice ( imo of course)

[bundle]

    Sorry Mate but the title of the thread. for someone that wanted to pass, you sure as hell gave it a good go. lol

[Newmanseye]

I know, its a bit crazy, there was no need to go coin flipping. I should have mucked it!

[bobby1]

Ak isn't always assured of being in a 50/50 coup tho.... these big bets are rarely AA/KK, but frequntly AK/AQ/AJ or underpairs.

I dont especially mind taking AK vs the range of AK---AJ/medium pairs... the equity is pretty good.

EDIT: naturally people can and do play AA/KK this way, but its not that often, so the frequency which you see AA/KK are no-where near as high as small/medium pairs (the fact that you have an ace and a king also disuade the liklihood)

You could just call and see a flop, but you are paying a high price to do so (a raise of 8bb's) and are going to be disappointed the 66% of the time it leaves you unimproved (of which I assume you will not be proceeding past the flop)

reads help, but absent a read, jamming/folding are probably pretty close to correct, with calling being the worst choice ( imo of course)

Now I am the first to admit that my tourney play is not the greatest but is calling with this hand to see a flop that bad a play?


If I had been in the jj position I think I would raised less and folded to the reraise.

[12barblues]

I think his call is much worse than your push. 

A raise to 9 x BB doesn't look like a big pair to me, so you have a coin flip at worst plus folding equity as a big stack prepared to take on another big stack.

[totalise]

calling with Ak isn't terrible.. but when u think of what hands he has, it goes like this:

He has AQ, flop is rags, he c/bets, what do you do..  fold? I guess so
He has JJ, flop is all rags, he c/bets, you fold? I guess so
He has AQ, and flop is A high, he c/bets, you stack him? I guess
He has JJ and the flop is A?K high, he c/bets 50% of time.. you call/raise.. he folds

(when i say JJ, I really mean medium pp's)

You lose out on a healty chunk when you miss, and you dont really win much (in general) when you hit.

EDIT: to include that you only hit on the flop about 33% of the time, and hands like this are normally played out on the flop

 You also lose out when hands like AQ/AJ cant fold preflop , but can fold or even worse bet you out of the pot, when you miss the flop. You also lose out on Fold Equity preflop when people raise and then fold (although this is scarce)

[bobby1]

Thanks for that. I would have reraised all in and been happy if he had passed. I have mental scarring from playing AK in tourneys. Would you play this differently in a cash game?

Thanks for the feedback, keep posting fella.

[totalise]

Thanks for that. I would have reraised all in and been happy if he had passed. I have mental scarring from playing AK in tourneys. Would you play this differently in a cash game?

Thanks for the feedback, keep posting fella.

Its a 2 way thing, Im happy when he passes pp's, but not happy when he passes AQ lol

I think in general, if I could garner a fold out of this situation every time, I would be content. (i guess)

The difficulty in comparing tourney situations to cash game situations is that in general, you stack depth is much greater in cash games.. so its difficult to say... but my default play is to fold AK to huge raises, for all the reasons above, and the fact that if you hit the flop with deepish stacks and still get action, you fear that u aren't ahead anyways. Thats only a blanket comment though, and as always, it depends on the scenario

[bobby1]

Thanks for that. I would have reraised all in and been happy if he had passed. I have mental scarring from playing AK in tourneys. Would you play this differently in a cash game?

Thanks for the feedback, keep posting fella.

Its a 2 way thing, Im happy when he passes pp's, but not happy when he passes AQ lol

I think in general, if I could garner a fold out of this situation every time, I would be content. (i guess)

The difficulty in comparing tourney situations to cash game situations is that in general, you stack depth is much greater in cash games.. so its difficult to say... but my default play is to fold AK to huge raises, for all the reasons above, and the fact that if you hit the flop with deepish stacks and still get action, you fear that u aren't ahead anyways. Thats only a blanket comment though, and as always, it depends on the scenario

Cheers, it all makes sense.

[WellChief]

Thats exactly why cash games and tournaments are so different.  I've been in cash games where 4 out of the 6 players have 500 big blinds!  It certainly makes for some fun poker trying like hell to stack each other.

[bobby1]

That is why I asked Chief, when I started playing poker I only played tourneys and was quite successful. I then began to play limit cash and found that my tourney play went to pieces because I had my 'limit poiker' head on.

I then graduated to no limit cash and found that I enjoyed it so much I didnt bother playing tourneys anymore. The problem I have now is when I do play tourneys I see ghosts everywhere. Something along the lines of' I he can make that bet here he must have the goods' or 'every check call indicates strength, along the lines of , he flopped a set or he is slow playing this or that.

My one poker claim to fame is that I have and entry in the Hendon mobs results database so there has been tourney ability in the past but to be honest I am so unconfident playing tourneys these days that I do not know how to get away from the fear.

Julian has a good entry on his blog regarding the way he has played online cash after playing only tourneys in the past.

Do you mix tourneys and cash or do you specialise and do you think mixing it up has an effect on how you play?

[bobby1]

oh and by the way, apologies to newmanseye for hijacking his thread.