Call or Fold? - What's he Got?

[Junior Senior]

This is a hand from the $109 F/O on stars earlier this morning.  I was chip leader with 45 left at this point and the second chip leader is sat next to me on my table.  I really am killing myself about this hand - i think it pretty much cost me a place at the final at least. - Thoughts........, should i have called or was my fold correct? - and should i have played it different at any point?  I am playing as 'thecharge'

PokerStars Game #4527388565: Tournament #22523183, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI
(100/200) - 2006/04/05 - 04:57:52 (ET)
Table '22523183 11' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: thegoatboy22 (3553 in chips)
Seat 2: beck_AA (2575 in chips)
Seat 3: thecharge (9860 in chips)
Seat 4: gbashi (8850 in chips)
Seat 5: morwena (4431 in chips)
Seat 6: DadamoMoney (4345 in chips)
Seat 7: BUCKIZ6 (4880 in chips)
Seat 8: buck21 (7137 in chips)
Seat 9: Chino_Legend (4590 in chips)
beck_AA: posts small blind 100
thecharge: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thecharge [ ]
gbashi: calls 200
morwena: folds
DadamoMoney: folds
BUCKIZ6: folds
buck21: folds
Chino_Legend: folds
thegoatboy22: folds
beck_AA: folds
thecharge: checks
*** FLOP *** [ ]
thecharge: checks
gbashi: bets 600
thecharge: calls 600
*** TURN *** [ ] [Ah]
thecharge: checks
gbashi: bets 1200
thecharge: calls 1200
*** RIVER *** [ Ah] []
thecharge: checks
gbashi: bets 6850 and is all-in
thecharge: folds
gbashi collected 4100 from pot
gbashi: doesn't show hand
gbashi said, "AA"



as you can see from the chat he claims to have limped with AA UTG, which is what i put him on right through the betting until the river when he moved all-in. - I think its quite possible he has limped with  here but maybe he was telling the truth and i just made the worst fold ever!!!!

[TightEnd]

Its certainly a tough spot. The problem is you have no way of knowing where you are. With that in mind....

why, out of interest, aren't you check raising on the turn to try and get information on where you are? if you get set in there and then on the turn I suppose it's still a tough decision but it's just as tough for him if he has AAA on a flushing board and you check raise him on the turn.

[b4matt]

Very difficult one m8... i really think i call there... thats what your hoping to hit right?  If he's made the flush also... so be it, but to not call when you've made your hand is a vvv big fold.

Are you playing luton at all?

[ifm]

I play this exactly the same, trap, trap, trap.
If you call the turn bet you must think you are ahead and i think the fact that you didn't reraise made him think you hadn't hit the flush......perfect!!
I'm pretty much a fatalist when it comes to small set/bigger set, small flush/bigger flush and KK v AA.
If i go bust there is not much i can do about it so i call every time.
I do think sometimes you can over analyse situations and convince yourself there are monsters under every bed and because of this i tend to keep my thinking simple.

[Nem]

How could you fold!?!

[NoflopsHomer]

I don't understand why you've folded, if you're planning to play the small suited cards, why are you folding when you hit a monster?


Oops, just saw you were in the blinds, my apologies. I still call here though.

[Timaloy]

I agree with Tightend about reraising on the turn, not only to find out where you are but to charge a price if he has a highier heart.  Really tough to put him on a hand, I wouldnt play a nut flush that way or top set with a flush on board.

My best choice of hand to put him on is a set of aces, he did limp in 1st pos, always sends an alarm off in my mind.

[Junior Senior]

ok, i didn't 'play' these cards as such - i was in the BB and he limped UTG so i was forced to play with them.  I have this thing about losing big pots in the blinds - i quite simply do not want to! - sometimes people get so carried away with the value of their cards in the blinds and i see more kamakaze exits in SB vs BB situations that any other typical NLH coup so i ALWAYS try and tread carefully especially when i have a good chip position.  I was really quite happy just to check/call all the way here and take the pot he had built - he seemed so confident when i called on a fushy board and hit - he just kept betting on the  on the turn with no fear, which made me think perhaps he had the flush too so i was just gonna check call his bet on the end (expecting it to be about 2600) but he moved the lot in and i didn't know what to do so i took the safe route of tournament survival as an option (so weak i could cry sometimes) - i was still sat in 4th after this hand and thought i could re-build. - on reflection though i really wish i had called. - i think he had AAA after running it over again in my head but i am still really not sure.

The reason i didnt check raise him on the turn is that i knew he would bet again on the river if i checked to him, also if he had AAA or a bigger flush he probably calls or moves in and i am facing a situation where i could be drawing dead or facing the chance of a pair up. so i wanted to A) ensure the board didnt pair because there is no way he was passing AAA on the turn or a FH on the river and B) trap him or C) check/call and keep the pot a little smaller with what in reality was quite a vulnerable hand in the blinds.

anyway thats my brain dump for now - i am changing my game from now on and will be contacting form boys b4matt and slick kid for some private tuition. 

[matt674]

but he moved the lot in and i didn't know what to do so i took the safe route of tournament survival as an option (so weak i could cry sometimes)

He who turns and runs away lives to fight another day...........

i was still sat in 4th after this hand and thought i could re-build. - on reflection though i really wish i had called. - i think he had AAA after running it over again in my head but i am still really not sure.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, however there is no point in beating yourself up over the decision - just because he wrote "AA" in the chat doesnt mean thats what he had, i never believe what people write when they have the option to actually show the cards! If you make the call and he turns over KQ hearts you then beat yourself up over making such a bad call - you are putting yourself in a lose lose situation where you end up beating yourself up either way. Once you have passed forget about it and move on to the next hand, like you say you are still 4th in chips so its not like you are short stacked!

To be honest you have to ask yourself "Why did i call the bet on the flop?" - answer: because you had a flush draw. So then when you hit the hand you are calling on the to hit you should have the courage of your convictions in seeing the hand through - otherwise why are you calling? I agree with the check raise on the turn putting the pressure back on your opponent, if he has a big hand like AAA then chances are he will go all in but now you are pot commited and you have to hope the board doesnt pair but if he has a hand like AK you are seriously putting him to the test - even if he has the K hearts.

Would you have played the hand differently had this been in a live tournament?

[Timaloy]

Tough to put him on K(h) Q(h) with the move all-in on the river, I would expect a bet of around 3-3.5k and hope to get paid. Hard to play the big stack, feels like you have more to lose.

Don't really mind the fold either you are still in a healthy chip position, and theres little point in risking it all on a marginal decison if you feel like it is one.

[clayftknight]

I'm with IFM here.

I never fold a 2 card flush to the possibility of a higher flush and I never fold a set to the possibility of a higher one, and as with IFM, I don't fold KK preflop..............If I lose I lose, so what, no-one moneys in half their tourneys.

Think about it, if you can be pushed off the pot when you have a 2 card flush!  then a stack that has you covered can blluff you out of any pot pretty much.

where did you finish in the tourney, cause just imagine if you won that pot! you'd have about 17k and 2nd was on about 7k?

I had this in the $530 on Stars, I had 10k very early on, chip leader had 12k, I flopped trips and another very big stack (8k) pushed all in on the turn when about 1.5k was in the pot..........all in for another 7k or more!
there was a str8 possible, or he could have had trips, higher kicker, it turnsd out he had king high but a gutshot, which didn't hit. I called simply because I felt that more often than not, if he had trips or a str8, he'd not try to get me to fold, simple I know, but in the heat of battle we sometimes lose sight of simple.

So, I had 18k, 30 minutes gone!  I was big chip leader, 2nd had 12k....that was the one and only time I made the final table and it was worth a few crisp notes .

also, in the same event, I've called all in preflop after 2 minutes with AA and was knocked out by J5 lol.

bottom line is, don't fear going out if you have a strong hand or you are handing the game to the big stacks on a plate.

[clayftknight]

btw, if he did have AA, he played this hand like a moron.

why would you move all in for a zillion chips when only a flush will call, and therefore beat you, and yet, so many other hands would call a smaller bet and lose but not call your all in.

that all in with AA was about as bad a play as there can be.

so, I assume he didn't have AA unless he just didn't notice the flush.

He probably therefore had a full house or biggerflush but even if he did you still should have called

[SupaMonkey]

I think he thinks you are worried about the strength of your hand. Your flat call of the turn looks weak and so his all in on the end can not be desgined to get you to call. He must want you to fold here.

Edit, i believe him when he says he has AAA. He does not want to lay it down but he is scared that you are drawing and there are many draws out there. That's why i think he is trying to knock you off of your hand on the end.

[Nem]

He probably therefore had a full house or biggerflush but even if he did you still should have called

No full house possible.

[Dubai]

You must turn flushes an awful lot more than me in big pots if you are passing them on the river