Giving aggressive players pot odds

[WellChief]

I'm going to give you a hand history, and see what people would do on the river first.

[Apr 20 00:45:07] : Hand Start.
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : Seat 1 : chao8888 has $450
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : Seat 2 : wizardplow has $847
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : Seat 3 : -nudie- has $473.75
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : Seat 4 : MisterEko has $541.50
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : Seat 5 : jerry22 has $560.15
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : Seat 6 : domstran has $371.25
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : wizardplow is the dealer.
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : -nudie- posted small blind.
[Apr 20 00:45:07] : MisterEko posted big blind.
[Apr 20 00:45:08] : chao8888 posted big blind and dead small blind.
[Apr 20 00:45:08] : Game [9735] started with 5 players.
[Apr 20 00:45:08] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Apr 20 00:45:08] : Seat 4 : MisterEko has
[Apr 20 00:45:15] : domstran called $6
[Apr 20 00:45:17] : chao8888 checked.
[Apr 20 00:45:18] : wizardplow folded.
[Apr 20 00:45:20] : -nudie- called $3 and raised $24
[Apr 20 00:45:22] : MisterEko called $24
[Apr 20 00:45:25] : MisterEko : i knew i should have passed turn
[Apr 20 00:45:25] : domstran called $24
[Apr 20 00:45:25] : chao8888 folded.
[Apr 20 00:45:26] : Dealing flop.
[Apr 20 00:45:26] : Board cards [ ]
[Apr 20 00:45:28] : -nudie- checked.
[Apr 20 00:45:30] : MisterEko bet $48
[Apr 20 00:45:35] : domstran called $48
[Apr 20 00:45:35] : -nudie- folded.
[Apr 20 00:45:36] : Dealing turn.
[Apr 20 00:45:36] : Board cards [ ]
[Apr 20 00:45:41] : MisterEko bet $90
[Apr 20 00:45:44] : domstran called $90
[Apr 20 00:45:45] : Dealing river.
[Apr 20 00:45:45] : Board cards [ ]
[Apr 20 00:45:51] : MisterEko checked.
[Apr 20 00:45:57] : domstran bet $200

? ? ? ?

[Table Manners]

Has to be a fold surely? If he's making a move then that's a ballsy play. What are you beating other than a bluff?

As a shot in the dark, did he have ?

[totalise]

I guess it depends why you checked the river.. did you just see an overcard and think "ffs" and then casually check the river? did you think that his likely hand was AKd so you checked the river ready to fold? or did you check the river because you want to give him a chance to bluff?

My default line here (against aggro players) is to check and call with a higher frequency then a check-fold, because thats why you check the river.. to let em bluff... if they miss or if they think you are weak. You also have meta-game benefits if you call down here, it makes them less likely to bluff you on the river, which consequently allows you to call with marginal hands on the turn because of the chance of cheap showdowns... and the turn is the most important part of a hand in poker, so that benefits you enormously.

I'd have played it harder from the start though, maybe re-rai preflop,but definitely pot it on the flop.. it means the pot is bigger on the turn.. which lets you bet more on the turn.. reducing the implied odds on your stack. Of course it also means you lose more the times you are behind, but you dont sweat that TOO much short handed with an overpair.

[WellChief]

Ok enough responses as the decision wasn't the main point of the topic.

[Apr 20 00:46:12] : It's your turn.
[Apr 20 00:46:12] : MisterEko has 10 seconds to respond.
[Apr 20 00:46:18] : MisterEko called $200
[Apr 20 00:46:18] : Showdown!
[Apr 20 00:46:18] : Seat 4 : MisterEko has
[Apr 20 00:46:20] : Seat 6 : domstran has
[Apr 20 00:46:20] : domstran has High Card : Ace
[Apr 20 00:46:20] : Seat 4 : MisterEko has
[Apr 20 00:46:20] : MisterEko has Pair: Queens
[Apr 20 00:46:20] : MisterEko wins $772 with Pair: Queens
[Apr 20 00:46:29] : Hand is over.


Good analysis as usual Totalise.  I checked it with the full intention of calling him down.  Table - I reckon is the ONLY hand that is beating me here.  Limping UTG and calling a raise then playing the flop so passively ruled out AdKd for me.  A hand like would probably not bet so much on the river, in fact a check is more likely.  I think my bet on the turn gives JdQd a chance to try and take the pot off me with a large raise semi-bluff (with 15 outs), so I think the possibility of that hand is lessened.  I also think he raises any set on the turn here, so the most likely hand is a missed draw and getting almost 3/1 on the call i can't pass.

The real point of this topic is about my turn bet.  Do you always have to bet the pot on the turn if you think the other person is drawing to force them out?  So many players cannot resist an all-in bet at the pot if you check to them on the river if they miss, so is it sometimes a good idea to give them a better price on the turn, with a view to possible escape if the scare card hits and to make a lot more off them if they miss and bluff?   Or does it just constantly leave you with harder decisions? 

Obviously this applies to playing against players capable and willing to fire a bluff if they miss, and to be honest most at higher levels cannot resist it.  Any thoughts?

[totalise]

The real point of this topic is about my turn bet.  Do you always have to bet the pot on the turn if you think the other person is drawing to force them out?

You never bet like this to "drive them out".. the whole point of betting in poker is to get them to make incorrect decisions, and obviously this gives them a chance to make a mistake. It also gets them firmly attached to the pot, it lets them clutch at straws trying to salvage their lost money when they miss, so the times you check it makes it more likely they will Jam, otherwise they are just giving up on really big pots... and kids online dont give up on pots easily. Note that this only applies with these specific stack sizes.. if they are shorter or deeper, you would adjust your strategy accordingly.

Or does it just constantly leave you with harder decisions? 

it does, and thats something I like to avoid (as I am sure I have alluded to in many previous posts!) The more money you get in the pot when you are ahead, the less of a mistake you are making if you call when you are behind... but it just comes back to the core essence of internet poker, people like to call online. When you know a collective weakness, you can just violate it to your own benefit.

A bad player varies his bet-size on the value of his hand-strength... a fantastic player varies his bet-size on the value of his opponents assumed hand strength, and as long as you leave him with enough chips to bluff the river, more is better on the turn.

[WellChief]

Yeh force them out was the wrong terminology, what I meant was it probably would force them out.  The $90 into a $190 is a bit too small. It left him with $250 or so.  Thing is if id bet much more I think he'd be likely to pass.  Do you make more here by taking it down on the turn with a bigger bet or taking your chances with a smaller bet and your aggressive opponent missing?

[totalise]

Yeh force them out was the wrong terminology, what I meant was it probably would force them out.  The $90 into a $190 is a bit too small. It left him with $250 or so.  Thing is if id bet much more I think he'd be likely to pass.  Do you make more here by taking it down on the turn with a bigger bet or taking your chances with a smaller bet and your aggressive opponent missing?

I dont think it matters much.. I would only bet more because id be pretty sure he would call more.. if I suspected he wouldn't call $120, I would bet $90 for all the reasons you mention above...(but most people that call 90 would call 120, and those $30 here and there add up if you are playing 20,000 hands a month, which is the main thrust of my post) the important thing is giving him enough leeway to let him hang himself on the river, and building a bigger pot on the turn permits him to apply more self-hanging on the river (in my experience)

[WellChief]

Yep you're very right, the more money they put into the pot the more they feel they can't give up on the river when checked to. 

I do feel though that a lot of players miss out on opportunities by not check-calling on the river on hands like these.   People are often afraid of checking a made hand even though if the opponent is likely to have been drawing then the only way of making more money is to let them bluff at it.

[totalise]

yup, cant argue with that... its a situation where if you bet, you dont get better hands folding, and dont very often get called by worse hands, so betting has a limited amount of equity. I like to call it "a zero equity bet"... just because fancy terms are cool.

Against calling stations however, considerations change, but thats for another time and place.