The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Woodsey]

Also don’t start me of food wastage in the UK, we should be ashamed of the amount of food we bin. Maybe a shortage of choice of food for a while would sharpen people up and make them more thoughtful about it......

Whoops.....there’s me being positive again....sorry, keep forgetting this is the doom and gloom thread.

[MintTrav]

there isnt a cut out solution to problems that haven't arose yet.

but when it comes to trade and getting buisiness done the market is flexible and innovative.

just as there are unintended consequences to planned changes, there will be all sorts of complexities arising from brexit.

but solutions will emerge, deals will be cut and trade will be done.

I think this is very true and I think it would happen quite quickly. As one example we can think about food and JIT. Very short term it might make sense to stock slightly more goods - economics would dictate that, rather than stockpile, we would very soon buy from elsewhere if supply chains became unpredictable/unworkable through Dover - goods can be provided from any global location as the absolute transit time isn't relevant to whether goods are supplied JIT. An unintended consequence might be a boost to our ports outside Dover and our internal haulage industry.

I also think it's true, but it's going to make stuff more expensive. If we don't buy from those sources now, it may be that they are inherently more expensive already. Plus there will be the delays and costs of all the new regulations and palaver.

But this is just one of the many huge problems we are facing - all for a nationalistic illusion of self-determination.

[teddybloat]

You say nationalistic illusion  of self determination, I say actual democratic independence. Tomato, tomato.

The latter is worth the  short term inconvenience and pain.

And for people who voted for control of borders and a reduction of immigration, leaving  will likely bring about the change they voted for. Again the pain will be worth it.

The scare mongering and accusations of nationalism - near always used in the perjorative voice - didn't win the argument before the vote, and they are unlikely to affect change in  hearts and minds now

[RED-DOG]

Also don’t start me of food wastage in the UK, we should be ashamed of the amount of food we bin. Maybe a shortage of choice of food for a while would sharpen people up and make them more thoughtful about it......

Whoops.....there’s me being positive again....sorry, keep forgetting this is the doom and gloom thread.

For a moment there I thought you had made a good point without including a snide remark.

[Skippy]

You say nationalistic illusion  of self determination, I say actual democratic independence. Tomato, tomato.

The latter is worth the  short term inconvenience and pain.

And for people who voted for control of borders and a reduction of immigration, leaving  will likely bring about the change they voted for. Again the pain will be worth it.

The scare mongering and accusations of nationalism - near always used in the perjorative voice - didn't win the argument before the vote, and they are unlikely to affect change in  hearts and minds now

I think there's some cognitive dissonance going on here (if not on your part than at least on some people who are stating this viewpoint). I really don't think that most people who voted leave thought they were signing up for years of misery to make the great leap to democratic freedom.  Now the reality of a no deal Brexit is becoming clear to some people, they are telling themselves and others that they were actually self sacrificing freedom fighters, because to admit otherwise would be to admit they were daft enough to be duped in the first place, and their self esteem won't allow them to do that.

[nirvana]

You say nationalistic illusion  of self determination, I say actual democratic independence. Tomato, tomato.

The latter is worth the  short term inconvenience and pain.

And for people who voted for control of borders and a reduction of immigration, leaving  will likely bring about the change they voted for. Again the pain will be worth it.

The scare mongering and accusations of nationalism - near always used in the perjorative voice - didn't win the argument before the vote, and they are unlikely to affect change in  hearts and minds now

I think this is well put. I wonder how many people who believe our independent status is an illusion or irrelevant would argue strongly for other peoples to have a basic human right to self determination.

[TightEnd]

The New York Times has the measure of Boris Johnson.

“Britain is teetering on the edge, on the verge of making catastrophic, irreversibly damaging mistakes”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html

[nirvana]

You say nationalistic illusion  of self determination, I say actual democratic independence. Tomato, tomato.

The latter is worth the  short term inconvenience and pain.

And for people who voted for control of borders and a reduction of immigration, leaving  will likely bring about the change they voted for. Again the pain will be worth it.

The scare mongering and accusations of nationalism - near always used in the perjorative voice - didn't win the argument before the vote, and they are unlikely to affect change in  hearts and minds now

I think there's some cognitive dissonance going on here (if not on your part than at least on some people who are stating this viewpoint). I really don't think that most people who voted leave thought they were signing up for years of misery to make the great leap to democratic freedom.  Now the reality of a no deal Brexit is becoming clear to some people, they are telling themselves and others that they were actually self sacrificing freedom fighters, because to admit otherwise would be to admit they were daft enough to be duped in the first place, and their self esteem won't allow them to do that.

I don't feel self sacrificing, i dont feel like a freedom fighter, i dont feel like i was making a great leap to democratic freedom and I don't feel duped and I don't tell people I am any of these things. One area that has come as a surprise and it really shouldn't have is the abysmal level.of leadership and government  competence throughout

Just mocking people really isn't ever going to enlighten is it

[TightEnd]

The current likelihood of various Brexit outcomes

Exit in March? Exit deal? No deal? Extension? Referendum? Revocation?

http://jackofkent.com/2018/07/the-current-likelihood-of-various-brexit-outcomes/

"Nobody knows what will happen with Brexit.

Nobody: no politician, no businessperson, no official, no pundit, no diplomat, no thinktanker, no citizen.

Nothing is so certain as to constitute knowledge.

One day, of course, when we know the outcome, there will be commentators who assert that what happened was inevitable all along.  But, as of now, those commentators cannot predict what that outcome will be.

All we have are best guesses – assessments of probabilities and possibilities."

[TightEnd]

You can't call your leader a racist and expect to remain within that party - and it's not clear why you should want to:

The Ian Austin row shows that for Corbynsceptics, the only way is exit
Corbynsceptics have a leader they don’t like, and cannot change.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/ian-austin-row-shows-corbynsceptics-only-way-exit

[TightEnd]

Brexit provides the perfect ingredients for a national food crisis


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/29/no-deal-brexit-food-supply-chain-crisis?CMP=twt_gu

[TightEnd]

Can’t we, just for once, hear from some sensible Brexiteers?

The European Research Group of Conservative MPs, which Rees-Mogg chairs, gives every impression of behaving like Tony Benn’s supporters in the 1980s. They are willing to put Britain’s departure from the EU at risk by opposing what they regard as May’s imperfect Brexit

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-latest-final-say-leave-voters-brexiteers-debate-second-referendum-a8467581.html

[TightEnd]

"The Government machine is working towards offering Parliament Chequers and Remain"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/29/theresa-may-accused-taking-kamikaze-approach-no-deal-brexit/

[TightEnd]

The Brexiteers walked into their own trap: the more no deal is talked about, the more disastrous it appears.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/07/brexiteers-only-have-themselves-blame-backlash-over-no-deal-planning

[teddybloat]

Personally the warnings of recession and economic doom weren't persuasive because even if they came to fruition I felt that the democratic principle was worth it.

I can't imagine anyone thought it would be a bed of roses after a potential vote leave result.

Now I don't think that is an unsensible view point. And I don't believe I am portraying myself as a freedom fighter.

If you believe it has to be cognitive bias, why do you think I voted leave? As for being duped I didn't watch any of the debates and was against being a part of the EU long before ukip and he referendum party were even in existence